Hawking says there are no gods

[Andy_Ross]

As usual the only evidence for any supernatural agent running the universe is rhetoric and philosophy.

Funny how there is never any actual empirical, objective evidence for any kind of god.

 

[Roboramma]

Maybe, maybe not. But not knowing if the universe is deterministic is a serious handicap to knowing how the universe works.

Except that it's not as simple as just saying that our modern understanding of quantum mechanics is non-deterministic.

Here's Sean Carroll again:
http://www.preposterousuniverse.com/blog/2011/12/05/on-determinism/

Quantum mechanics is where things get interesting. When a quantum state is happily evolving along according to the Schrödinger equation, everything is perfectly deterministic; indeed, more so than classical mechanics, because the space of states (Hilbert space) doesn’t allow for the kind of non-generic funny business that let non-deterministic classical solutions sneak in. But when we make an observation, we are unable to deterministically predict what its outcome will be. (And Bell’s theorem at least suggests that this inability is not just because we’re not smart enough; we never will be able to make such predictions.) At this point, opinions become split about whether the loss of determinism is real, or merely apparent.

 

[JoeMorgue]

"Sure we could figure things out and learn more and more about how the universe operates... but what if the universe really runs on random dream logic with no cause and effect?"

"Sure these scientist are discovering more and more about how the universe operates... but that only under the assumption that reality is real."

"Sure these scientist are able to make more and more accurate predictions based on centuries of accumulated knowledge... but what if God makes things happen differently with magic when we aren't looking?"

 

[Mojo]

As usual the only evidence for any supernatural agent running the universe is rhetoric and philosophy.

And as usual it isn’t even good rhetoric or philosophy.

 

[psionl0]

As usual the only evidence for any supernatural agent running the universe is rhetoric and philosophy.

Funny how there is never any actual empirical, objective evidence for any kind of god.

You must be posting in the wrong thread.

The claim here is that it has been proven that there is no room for a god in this universe. And this claim is being made by Stephen Hawking so it must be true (authority and all that).

 

[Andy_Ross]

You must be posting in the wrong thread.

The claim here is that it has been proven that there is no room for a god in this universe. And this claim is being made by Stephen Hawking so it must be true (authority and all that).

Can't think of one better.

 

[Darat]

You must be posting in the wrong thread.

The claim here is that it has been proven that there is no room for a god in this universe. And this claim is being made by Stephen Hawking so it must be true (authority and all that).

By using the weasel "a god" you of course are not refering to the gods people believe in.

 

[JoeMorgue]

The claim here is that it has been proven that there is no room for a god in this universe. And this claim is being made by Stephen Hawking so it must be true (authority and all that).

Hawking said no such thing, stop lying.

 

[David Mo]

You don't clarify something by obfuscating it. Having a handful of formulas that allow us to predict some behaviours in the universe is a long way from knowing all about it - let alone proving a negative.

That's how science works. It gives explanations of concrete facts and extends them as far as it can. There is no science and no possible knowledge of the Whole. We allways know something within limits.

But the best "negative" test is the continued failure to "positively" demonstrate something. This is the case of gods.

 

[JoeMorgue]

There is no science and no possible knowledge of the Whole. We allways know something within limits.

Especially when you can just make up where the limits are.

So what you can "And then?" any epistemology. Okay and? The point?

 

[psionl0]

By using the weasel "a god" you of course are not refering to the gods people believe in.

Maybe in Swahili "a god" doesn't mean "any god" but there is no way that any reasonable person could possibly believe that I am not including the "gods that people believe in".

Hawking said no such thing, stop lying.

I read the OP. Did you?

 

[The Sparrow]

Maybe in Swahili "a god" doesn't mean "any god" but there is no way that any reasonable person could possibly believe that I am not including the "gods that people believe in".

Well, perhaps it comes from years of experience debating theists who are very quick to point out what their god is "not", but very loose and vague when asked to point out what their god "is".
Apologies in advance if perhaps you are different. Could you define god?

 

[psionl0]

Well, perhaps it comes from years of experience debating theists who are very quick to point out what their god is "not", but very loose and vague when asked to point out what their god "is".

This is not a theological debate but a scientific one. The question is whether our scientific knowledge is advanced enough to rule out the possibility that a god could exist. I would suggest that we are still standing on Newton's beach and have yet to wet our feet in the vast ocean of knowledge.

Could you define god?

I doubt that I could come up with a very good definition.

From past and present examples of "gods" I might suggest a supernatural being that may or may not have some human characteristics and possibly has the power of life and death over mere mortals and maybe can shape their futures and destinies. A powerful enough god can create or destroy entire worlds or even the entire universe.

I'm sure that others can come up with better definitions.

 

[GDon]

The claim here is that it has been proven that there is no room for a god in this universe. And this claim is being made by Stephen Hawking so it must be true (authority and all that).

I suspect Hawking is addressing the Kalam Cosmological Argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalam_cosmological_argument

Whatever begins to exist has a cause;
The universe began to exist;
Therefore:
The universe has a cause.​

If, as Hawking and others propose, the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, then that impacts on the KCA and any arguments based on it.

 

[The Sparrow]

This is not a theological debate but a scientific one. The question is whether our scientific knowledge is advanced enough to rule out the possibility that a god could exist. I would suggest that we are still standing on Newton's beach and have yet to wet our feet in the vast ocean of knowledge.

Possibly. But I believe what Hawking has suggested is that we have adequate models of the universe which do not require (in our local representation of the universe) an additional "actor".

I doubt that I could come up with a very good definition.

From past and present examples of "gods" I might suggest a supernatural being that may or may not have some human characteristics and possibly has the power of life and death over mere mortals and maybe can shape their futures and destinies. A powerful enough god can create or destroy entire worlds or even the entire universe.

I'm sure that others can come up with better definitions.

Would such actions by this possible god leave a detectable trace or evidence after the fact?

 

[qayak]

You must be posting in the wrong thread.

The claim here is that it has been proven that there is no room for a god in this universe. And this claim is being made by Stephen Hawking so it must be true (authority and all that).

Hawking did nothing but make a small leap of logic: In all scientific inquiry there has never been one iota of evidence for a god. In fact, in all human history there has never been any evidence, only ignorance. Stating that their is no room for a god in the universe is a far smaller leap that claiming there is a god, or even room for a god.

 

[Ron_Tomkins]

Ron don't forget the baby for us to eat at the next Evil Atheist Membership Dinner. You forget last time and we had to send Dawkins out to get one and you know fresh baby is never as good as one that's been marinating for several hours.

I know, I'm sorry. I always forget. But the good news is one of my friends just had a baby, so we have fresh meat for next supper.

 

[Darat]

Maybe in Swahili "a god" doesn't mean "any god" but there is no way that any reasonable person could possibly believe that I am not including the "gods that people believe in".


I read the OP. Did you?

Then your sentence is proven false since there are many, many gods that people people believe in that we know do not exist.

 

[Darat]

Hawking did nothing but make a small leap of logic: In all scientific inquiry there has never been one iota of evidence for a god. In fact, in all human history there has never been any evidence, only ignorance. Stating that their is no room for a god in the universe is a far smaller leap that claiming there is a god, or even room for a god.

We know there is "no room" for the god that the RCs believe in, no room for the god Muslims believe in, no room for the gods the Hindus believe in. That covers the gods of the vast majority of the religious folk in the world.

 

[psionl0]

Then your sentence is proven false since there are many, many gods that people people believe in that we know do not exist.

If you have to go through so much linguistical acrobatics just to strawman me then you have no credibility at all.