Elizabeth Warren Ancestry Thread

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Saying she should take the test and then afterwards that she shouldn't have taken the test is contradictory.

I'm also a little bemused by the people here and elsewhere who evidently watch the football being pulled away from Charlie Brown and come away thinking that Lucy is the hero of the story. Perhaps Charlie Brown is naive for thinking that Lucy is going to be a decent human being rather than an ********, but Lucy is still an ********.

 

[CORed]

"Ha! What an idiot! She should just take the test! The fact that she's not taken a test just proves that she's lying!"

*Warren takes the test*

"Ha! What an idiot! She should never have taken the test!"

Oddly enough, those are not contradictory.

 

[CORed]

Actually it suggests that results less than 3.1% are not definitive.

It is cool, CERTAINLY our Hero Expert explained the margin of error and how it applied here, right?

Right?

Anyone?

Just a word of advice: you might want to take some kind of statistics class, or else stay out of discussions about statistics, to avoid making a fool of yourself like that in the future. That's not actually how it works.

 

[Fizil]

By the way, here's the video of Trump saying the thing that he says he didn't say.

https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/1051805214028775426

1:55, very end of the clip.

Now that we have established that Trump is thoroughly dishonest about this, can we agree that Trump has a moral obligation to fulfill his promise and donate $1 million to charity?

Oh my god, you are actually making me defend Trump.

To make myself feel better, I will preface this by saying I am pretty sure he meant to lie. I don't think he is smart enough to actually be right on purpose in this case. I also think a literal interpretation of the speech violates the spirit of it, and following the spirit he should donate that million dollars, but it is Trump so what do you expect.

However, he is technically right: he didn't actually promise one million dollars for her to take a DNA test and provide the results. First of all, it is a promise for the future, and secondly a promise in a specific scenario. So Trump is describing something he will do: In a future debate, when she claims she is of Indian descent, he will give her a testing kit, and then promise her a million dollars to take the test.

The promise is being described as one he will make, in the future, in that debate context.

Now, I need to go lay down for a bit, saying Trump was right has made me a bit nauseous.

 

[BrooklynBaby]

When were those claims disproven?

It sounds like Fauxcahontas is talking about something more recent than a possible 1/1024 connection, with her mother having to elope and all... Maybe she heard this song right before the interview -- Half Breed by Cher:


My father married a pure Cherokee
My mother's people were ashamed of me
The Indians said I was white by law
The White Man always called me "Indian Squaw"
Half-breed, that's all I ever heard
Half-breed, how I learned to hate the word
Half-breed, she's no good they warned
Both sides were against me since the day I was born"

 

[acbytesla]

I agree that the whole thing is stupid. However, whether it was the best tactic or not, I am finding a great deal of humor in watching the gold post moving and spin doctoring that Trump supporters doing now to spin the apparent scientific confirmation of Warren's family anecdotes as somehow proving that she actually lied, as well as doubling down on the lie that Warren somehow got an unfair benefit from a claim Native American ancestry.

It reminds me of the rapid change among birthers from, "If Obama would just provide the long form birth certificate, it would remove all doubt" to claims that something or other in the pdf from the scan of said document somehow proved it was fake. The hardcore Trump supporters and Republican base are so far beyond the reach of evidence and logic, that of course nothing can reach them, but for people who still have some capacity for rational thought, the reaction to being shown to be wrong goes a long way to illustrate just how far beyond the capability of rational thought they have gone.

It's sort of like dealing with Christians....or Muslims...or Mormons....or Scientologists...or Hindus...or pretty much any mythology. They are only going to believe what might support their claim regardless of its truthfulness or reliability and disbelieve anything like science or facts that don't.

 

[acbytesla]

It sounds like Fauxcahontas is talking about something more recent than a possible 1/1024 connection, with her mother having to elope and all... Maybe she heard this song right before the interview -- Half Breed by Cher:


My father married a pure Cherokee
My mother's people were ashamed of me
The Indians said I was white by law
The White Man always called me "Indian Squaw"
Half-breed, that's all I ever heard
Half-breed, how I learned to hate the word
Half-breed, she's no good they warned
Both sides were against me since the day I was born"

Edited by zooterkin: 

<SNIP>
Edit for rule 0 and rule 12

 

[Garrette]

It sounds like Fauxcahontas is talking about something more recent than a possible 1/1024 connection, with her mother having to elope and all... Maybe she heard this song right before the interview -- Half Breed by Cher:


My father married a pure Cherokee
My mother's people were ashamed of me
The Indians said I was white by law
The White Man always called me "Indian Squaw"
Half-breed, that's all I ever heard
Half-breed, how I learned to hate the word
Half-breed, she's no good they warned
Both sides were against me since the day I was born"

And this is the crux of the lies about Warren. In the very clip that you yourself linked (not new to most of us, I'm sure), Warren made no claims about the scientific accuracy of her mother's ancestry or her father's parent's bigotry against it. She related what her grandparents said about her parent's planned marriage.

 

[River]

The math leaves Warren at approximately somewhere between 1/64 and 1/1024 NA.


Between 1987 and 1995, Warren identified as Cherokee at two law schools where she taught, including Harvard. At the time, a Fordham Law Review article described Warren as Harvard’s “first woman of color.” She is nowhere near the required percentages to be recognized by any Indian tribe.

Most tribes require a specific percentage of Native “blood,” called blood quantum, in addition to being able to document which tribal member you descend from. Some tribes require as much as 25% Native heritage, and most require at least 1/16th Native heritage, which is one great-great grandparent.Dec 18, 2012

Dems declare victory. It's all ridiculous except for Warrens own claims on documents. In this case she was proven wrong. She is not Cherokee.

 

[kookbreaker]

It sounds like Fauxcahontas is talking about something more recent than a possible 1/1024 connection, with her mother having to elope and all... Maybe she heard this song right before the interview -- Half Breed by Cher:


My father married a pure Cherokee
My mother's people were ashamed of me
The Indians said I was white by law
The White Man always called me "Indian Squaw"
Half-breed, that's all I ever heard
Half-breed, how I learned to hate the word
Half-breed, she's no good they warned
Both sides were against me since the day I was born"

Good old Conspiracy Theorist tactics: When the evidence debunks you, just dance and sing and hope nobody notices.

 

[kookbreaker]

The math leaves Warren at approximately somewhere between 1/64 and 1/1024 NA.

Between 1987 and 1995, Warren identified as Cherokee at two law schools where she taught, including Harvard. At the time, a Fordham Law Review article described Warren as Harvard’s “first woman of color.” She is nowhere near the required percentages to be recognized by any Indian tribe.

Goal post rocket sleds!

 

[sylvan8798]

However, he is technically right: he didn't actually promise one million dollars for her to take a DNA test and provide the results. First of all, it is a promise for the future, and secondly a promise in a specific scenario. So Trump is describing something he will do: In a future debate, when she claims she is of Indian descent, he will give her a testing kit, and then promise her a million dollars to take the test.

The promise is being described as one he will make, in the future, in that debate context.

Now, I need to go lay down for a bit, saying Trump was right has made me a bit nauseous.

Ah yes, but will he actually do that at some future debate now?

 

[crescent]

It sounds like Fauxcahontas is talking about something more recent than a possible 1/1024 connection, with her mother having to elope and all...

Here's how she described it:

"As a kid, I never asked my mom about documentation when she talked about our Native American heritage," Warren said in a 2012 campaign ad. "What kid would? But I knew my father’s family didn’t like that she was part Cherokee and part Delaware. So my parents had to elope."

Here's how her brother heard it:

And David Herring, Warren’s brother, said he grew up hearing, "Your grandfather is part Delaware, a little bitty bit, way back, and your grandmother is part Cherokee."

So all she ever stated was that her mother was "part" Native American and that her father's family had heard of it. Both her and her brother make it clear that even at the time of her grandparents, the relatives were only "part" native.

All of which is supported by the recent tests and reports.

 

[sylvan8798]

And no surprise that he would hide behind his own loudly proclaimed lies to welsh on a debt.

This is a slur, in case you are not aware of it.

 

[crescent]

The math leaves Warren at approximately somewhere between 1/64 and 1/1024 NA.

She never claimed anything else. All she ever claimed was some distant ancestry. The recent tests support that.

It was you conservatives and Republicans who lied made up a bunch of strawman fallacies asserting she claimed membership or any sort of more precise ancestry. It is the conservative and Republican claims against Warren that have been proven false.

 

[The Big Dog]

Just a word of advice: you might want to take some kind of statistics class, or else stay out of discussions about statistics, to avoid making a fool of yourself like that in the future. That's not actually how it works.

well certainly you, and our expert did explain how it does work here, right?

Gosh, I ever so much want to learn!

Because right now, I am not seeing anything on how the potential for various errors in the process were accounted for.

Please help me to learn!

 

[The Big Dog]

Why 23andMe Is Smoke and Mirrors

"It’s not so much what they can tell you folks, because besides some obvious genetic disorders, 23andMe is not super concerned with the accuracy of their reports, but rather with compiling vital information about us and using that data for whatever sordid purposes they can come up with, to give them more leverage in the world than they already have. "

Hmm, our expert consulted for them... hmmm.

say folks just how accurate are these reports? They are doing "Science" right?

 

[carrps]

Furthermore, if a 'generation' is 25-30 years, that would put the time frame of her native ancestory somewhere around the early 1800s. While that may be outside 'living' memory, it is certainly not ancient history. I know people who have built family trees that go back that far.

I had no family history of NA ancestry, and I didn't know anything beyond two generations back on my dad's side. He said he thought he was "mostly Scottish," and that turned out to be true. But I didn't know how many generations back his family had been in the Americas. I have multiple ancestors from the mid 17th C. I was amazed.

Then, I had my DNA tested, and it turns out I have a miniscule amount of NA ancestry. Probably as much as Warren. It's just so easy for stories to be either forgotten or exaggerated. It's a nice-to-know for me, but I'd hate to be ridiculed for mentioning it. Trump is just a bloviating *******!

 

[BobTheCoward]

The math leaves Warren at approximately somewhere between 1/64 and 1/1024 NA.


Between 1987 and 1995, Warren identified as Cherokee at two law schools where she taught, including Harvard. At the time, a Fordham Law Review article described Warren as Harvard’s “first woman of color.” She is nowhere near the required percentages to be recognized by any Indian tribe.




Dems declare victory. It's all ridiculous except for Warrens own claims on documents. In this case she was proven wrong. She is not Cherokee.

The tribal regulation is irrelevant. A rule that an elephant is a duck does not make it so.

 

[Thermal]

TBD, the challenge was to take one of the swab tests. She did, and it substantially confirmed what she was told by her mother.

Arguing now that the test is not accurate enough is textbook moving the goalposts.