Cont: Mueller Investigation pt3

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Stacyhs said:
I agree that a lot of Trump's support is cult-like. They cheer no matter what he says, no matter how big a lie or how outrageous it is. They literally think he was sent by God. They not only excuse him no matter what he does, they support it. They have left critical thinking behind and just blindly accept whatever he says as The Truth. They truly would accept him shooting someone in the middle of Times Square and find a "reason" why he wasn't wrong to do it. It's no longer the GOP; it's the Party of Trump. And it's scary as hell.
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Not to mention the whole QAnon nuttery, which is as much a cult as it comes.
 
LSSBB said:
Not to mention the whole QAnon nuttery, which is as much a cult as it comes.
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True. Conspiracy theorists are drawn to Trump. They probably see a like-minded CT after all that Obama birth certificate and "Deep State" nonsense and Trump trying to link Cruz' father to JFK's assassination.
 
kellyb said:
Their cultish thought process extends far beyond events directly related to Trump, too. Now ANYTHING that happens that doesn't align with their narrative/worldview gets written off as "fake news".

Cults are known for using "thought-stopping phrases". https://francoistremblay.wordpress.com/2011/02/13/some-thought-stopping-techniques/

Just defaulting to "fake news" is one of the biggest and most effective ever.
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With the Germans it was Lugenpresse

The Bible has a lot of them Here are just a couple.
2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Proverbs 3:5
and lean not on your own understanding;
 
Stacyhs said:
Agreed.

The article you linked was very interesting and it reminded me of an incident a few years ago. I had an aunt who belonged to a religion a lot of people, including myself and even some countries, consider a cult. My mother once asked her some questions about certain of its teachings and she couldn't answer them. She said "I don't understand it, but I believe it." When asked how she could believe something she didn't understand, she became extremely defensive and started crying. When she calmed down, she told us that she had questions about her religion and had gone to those she was taught could answer them. They gave her their answers, but when she still expressed doubt, she was basically told that she must just accept the answers and stop questioning the church's teachings or she could be 'disciplined'. In this particular church, this could include ostracism from other members which would have essentially affected her entire life.
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Sort of like PMF and TJMK.;)
 
LSSBB said:
Not to mention the whole QAnon nuttery, which is as much a cult as it comes.
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Yeah, and in addition to "Fakenews!", they have "Trust the Plan!" as a backup cognitive dissonance cure-all. lol
 
acbytesla said:
With the Germans it was Lugenpresse

The Bible has a lot of them Here are just a couple.
2 Corinthians 10:5
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Proverbs 3:5
and lean not on your own understanding;
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The Southern Baptist theology I grew up in was big on this one:

Let no one deceive himself. If any of you thinks he is wise in this age, he should become a fool, so that he may become wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness.” And again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”
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kellyb said:
The Southern Baptist theology I grew up in was big on this one:
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I know that one too. I too had a Baptist upbringing. 6 summers at Baptist Bible camp and I doubt I ever believed. It was circular reasoning piled on to circular reasoning. I think the last 4 years i went I was more focused on turning the good girls into bad girls then I was in scripture.

Here's a great video of Stephen Pinker about the Enlightenment. I highly recommend it.
 
kellyb said:
Yeah, and in addition to "Fakenews!", they have "Trust the Plan!" as a backup cognitive dissonance cure-all. lol
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Sounds pretty much exactly like a number of religions these days. Admittedly, I'm more partial to the FSM's plans than I am to YWHW's.
 
acbytesla said:
I know that one too. I too had a Baptist upbringing. 6 summers at Baptist Bible camp and I doubt I ever believed. It was circular reasoning piled on to circular reasoning. I think the last 4 years i went I was more focused on turning the good girls into bad girls then I was in scripture.
Here's a great video of Stephen Pinker about the Enlightenment. I highly recommend it.
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Did you mean "There's" or did you forget to link it?
 
acbytesla said:
I forgot to link it. I swear I have been having more than my share of absent minded moments this week . My chess rating has dropped 150 points.

Here it is. Stephen Pinker on the Enlightenment.

https://youtu.be/8sMtw9mKHX0
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Excellent...

"Secular, liberal democracies are the happiest and healthiest places on Earth, probably in the history of our species, and they are the top destination of people who vote with their feet."

I can relate to that... its why I live in this country.
 
Sherkeu said:
Why does he let it go on?
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Because it's a huge, complex case which involves 6 countries (more if you count the non-US intelligence agencies who have assisted and provided evidence), and Trump is the sitting president, meaning that any case Mueller brings will have to be airtight.

The investigation is proceeding really quickly.
 
To further pile on against such naivete as, "But Mueller hasn't shown evidence of Collusion, so there must have been none."

Mueller runs a tight, leakless ship. We see where he is only when indictments come down. He's several steps ahead of us grasping ignorants in the peanut gallery. Only when a *complete*, unassailable case against Trump is put together will we see it.

The *political* concerns here are potent. A slavering, spineless GOP Majority will steadfastly support Trump as long as the Base of Deplorables does not desert their Dear Leader. In such an environment, it behooves Mueller to really and truly get all his ducks in a row before moving. Indeed, waiting for support in the Base to at least waver is in the best interest of Justice. Otherwise those so called GOP "Lawmakers" will do their best to downplay and ignore any evidence so as to retain their power/position.

In this environment, the mindless Base holds the power because upon it the politicos' positions depend. The latter are in the thrall of the former because they fear being primaried above all. Personal power comes before country, and slavish toeing to the Trumpian line is the route by which to keep it.

It is truly to be naive to expect the normal course of Justice to proceed where this President is concerned.
 
Lurch said:
To further pile on against such naivete as, "But Mueller hasn't shown evidence of Collusion, so there must have been none."

Mueller runs a tight, leakless ship. We see where he is only when indictments come down. He's several steps ahead of us grasping ignorants in the peanut gallery. Only when a *complete*, unassailable case against Trump is put together will we see it.

The *political* concerns here are potent. A slavering, spineless GOP Majority will steadfastly support Trump as long as the Base of Deplorables does not desert their Dear Leader. In such an environment, it behooves Mueller to really and truly get all his ducks in a row before moving. Indeed, waiting for support in the Base to at least waver is in the best interest of Justice. Otherwise those so called GOP "Lawmakers" will do their best to downplay and ignore any evidence so as to retain their power/position.

In this environment, the mindless Base holds the power because upon it the politicos' positions depend. The latter are in the thrall of the former because they fear being primaried above all. Personal power comes before country, and slavish toeing to the Trumpian line is the route by which to keep it.

It is truly to be naive to expect the normal course of Justice to proceed where this President is concerned.
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I'll second that.
The public does not know what, if anything, Mueller has that could show collusion by Trump and/or his campaign or if he has definitive proof of obstruction. All we can do is wait for his report to be made public.

My personal opinion is that, if he had found nothing more than what has already been resolved (Manaforte, Cohen, etc) then the investigation would be done. He is still investigating something, but what that could be, and whom it concerns, only he and his team know.
 
Stacyhs said:
I'll second that.
The public does not know what, if anything, Mueller has that could show collusion by Trump and/or his campaign or if he has definitive proof of obstruction. All we can do is wait for his report to be made public.

My personal opinion is that, if he had found nothing more than what has already been resolved (Manaforte, Cohen, etc) then the investigation would be done. He is still investigating something, but what that could be, and whom it concerns, only he and his team know.
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Thirded.

My personal prediction being the next major move will be on Jr. or Kushner. He may wait until after the midterms to avoid influencing the election.

Part of me wonders if he'd do it just ahead of them to goad Trump into a public meltdown to increase the odds of having a Congress that will actually do something about it.

The former is more noble and principled, the latter more shrewd and realpolitik. Mueller probably can't drag it out to 2020, so if the GOP holds their majorities in the mid-terms, it's a moot point.
 
smartcooky said:
Excellent...

"Secular, liberal democracies are the happiest and healthiest places on Earth, probably in the history of our species, and they are the top destination of people who vote with their feet."

I can relate to that... its why I live in this country.
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What I like about the video is how it juxtaposes a society based on superstitions, ancient texts and appeals to authority to a society based on reason, logic and science.

Give me a society based on Plato, Spinoza, Democritus, Locke, Paine, Jefferson and Rawls.
 
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Lurch said:
To further pile on against such naivete as, "But Mueller hasn't shown evidence of Collusion, so there must have been none."

Mueller runs a tight, leakless ship. We see where he is only when indictments come down. He's several steps ahead of us grasping ignorants in the peanut gallery. Only when a *complete*, unassailable case against Trump is put together will we see it.
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I agree that Mueller likely knows a lot more than we do.

But even for us outside observers who have only a partial picture, we have plenty of evidence of collusion/conspiracy/etc... the Trump tower meeting (complete with changing stories... "didn't happen", "it did but nothing useful") and the "I like it" email from one of Trump's spawn show intent and a willingness to deceive from the Trump side, the analysis from intelligence agencies show the involvement of the Russians, etc. Yes, some of the evidence is circumstantial (but circumstantial evidence is still evidence). It may not have risen to the level of "beyond a reasonable doubt" that is needed for a conviction, but again there was plenty of evidence that OJ did it (even if it never resulted in a conviction either.)
 
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