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NY Times editorial bombshell

3) Prevent POTUS from making disastrous decisions, especially when he hopes to violate federal law

Who gets to decide that they were disastrous decisions?

Do you support any rogue element of an administration sabotaging the President whenever they think it is a "disastrous decision"? Or just when you agree with them?
 
Who gets to decide that they were disastrous decisions?

Do you support any rogue element of an administration sabotaging the President whenever they think it is a "disastrous decision"? Or just when you agree with them?
Can you seriously not tell Trump is messed up? :confused:
 
Well, this is why admin officials sabotaging the POTUS and not fulfilling their oaths of office instead of resigning and going public is bad. If the "steady state" operatives can just make up rules, the rest of us are left doing the same.

None of this is legitimate.

I must disagree. What exactly have they pledged their oaths of office to do? I presume to uphold the Constitution of the USA, not an oath of personal loyalty to Trump nor even to faithfully implement every thoughtless, crazy, dangerous whim he might have. That would be true of a kingship or a dictatorship, but the Constitution instead carefully creates a government of shared and distributed responsibilities, obligations, and power. The legitimate US government is far more and consists of many more people than just Trump; even the Executive branch has never been just been viewed as a machine to do whatever the president demands. There is significant precedent of members of the cabinet and other members of the administration quietly working to alter, soften, or prevent extremely bad decisions of a dangerous or emotionally unstable President. e.g. cabinet members sought to constraint Nixon in his final days as president to prevent him, when drunk and bitter, from initiating a nuclear war.

I can easily see how a deeply moral person would view that patriotism and commitment to the authentic Constitutional form of government demand that they resist Trump's actions when these actions violate his oath of office and/or are obviously extremely dangerous to the United States. Particularly when they find themselves far from alone among their colleagues in their concerns. And I for one am extremely grateful for these people and I see them as patriots. The easy thing is to go along quietly. The brave thing is to do the right thing. And how does one determine what the right thing is? Ah, there's the rub! But if the stories in Woodward's book are true the right thing is to act as in the Op Ed. Saying "Trump was elected and his is the true will of the people of the US" ignores the complicated reality and the actual Constitution which defined a chief executive not a king. Is fulfilling one's oath and responsibility to the USA simply following orders no matter what their impact? No matter how awful or disastrous?

Yes we've all been taught in high school that the highest action would be to refuse to implement the policy, resign, and denounce the President. In high minded theory, yes. But in practice such an action may well be highly questionable in its results. Inside the person can still work to prevent disaster; once resigned they are likely to be replaced by a yes-man lackey and then what? Others have resigned and come out publicly against the president: has it done anything? I can see how thinking that an action such as the op-Ed might be the best way to bring this all to public attention and to force the hands of those others resisting the worse of Trump and of the others working to enable the administration. In fact it probably is the very best way to start a public discussion of the applicability of 25th Amendment.
 
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... I can easily see how a deeply moral person would view that patriotism and commitment to the authentic Constitutional form of government demand that they resist Trump's actions when these actions violate his oath of office and/or are obviously extremely dangerous to the United States. ...
I'm with you up until the part where said person chooses self-serving preservation over just coming clean and exposing Trump's dangerous behavior.
 
I must disagree. What exactly have they pledged their oaths of office to do? I presume to uphold the Constitution of the USA, not an oath of personal loyalty to Trump nor even to faithfully implement every thoughtless, crazy, dangerous whim he might have.

Part of their oath is to the constitution, and part is to faithfully "fulfill their duties of office."

You can look those up position by position. In the case of the AG, it's to follow US law and advise the POTUS on legal matters, for example.
 
I must disagree. What exactly have they pledged their oaths of office to do? I presume to uphold the Constitution of the USA, not an oath of personal loyalty to Trump nor even to faithfully implement every thoughtless, crazy, dangerous whim he might have. That would be a kingship or a dictatorship, and the Constitution instead carefully creates a government of shared and distributed responsibilities, obligations, and power. The legitimate US government is far more and consists of many more people than just Trump; even the Executive branch has never been just been viewed as a machine to do whatever the president demands.

That is exactly what it does

The executive Power shall be vested in a President of the United States of America.

All executive power is his. By reversing or carrying out an order in a manner contrary to the president's direction, the deputy is exercising executive power. But that power was vested in the president only, not them.
 
Who gets to decide that they were disastrous decisions?

Do you support any rogue element of an administration sabotaging the President whenever they think it is a "disastrous decision"? Or just when you agree with them?

To whom? The only example I've seen so far was an expert in economics preventing Trump from unthinkingly scuttling a perfectly functional trade agreement.

How about telling the military to draw up a plan for the assassination of a foreign leader, such as Assad. Is that disastrous enough for you? Or how about getting them to submit a plan for a pre-emptive nuclear strike on North Korea. Would that be bad enough to be a "disastrous decision"?

Do you really think that its OK for POTUS to get into a global nuclear dick-wagging contest? I'd rather he didn't because his opponent lives over in my neck of the woods
 
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How about telling the military to draw up a plan for the assassination of a foreign leader, such as Assad. Is that disastrous enough for you? Or how about getting them to submit a plan for a pre-emptive nuclear strike on North Korea. Would that be bad enough to be a "disastrous decision"?

Do you really think that its OK for POTUS to get into a global nuclear dick-wagging contest? I'd rather he didn't because that is over in my neck of the woods

Do you mean acceptable or according to the rules?
 

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