2018 mid-term election

Distracted1 said:
I guess we just differ then. I referred to an African American as a "boy" just this past Sunday, and frequently use terms such as "monkey around","monkey wrench","monkey see-monkey do", and "monkey suit" without hesitation.

Your allegation that this makes me "stupid", and that my use of the word "monkey" in an expression is a "vague allusion to African Americans" is exactly what I am talking about.
I do not need to defend my innocent use of English. Your vilification of my innocent word choice makes you seem to me a bit less than completely rational- and further, someone you wouldn't want on "your side" even though our viewpoints are very similar.

Were I an independent voter in Florida, being reminded that "the left" considers me an enemy because I refer to a male juvenile as a "boy", and to foolish behavior as "monkeying around" is not going to get me to the polling booth to pull the lever for the Democrats.

That is the (possible) subtlety of the comments by DeSantis I am seeing.
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You're racially insensitive. You may not be a bigot, but you're definitely clueless about this. What white person in their right mind would call an African American 'boy'? I've also used the term monkey wrench or monkey it up but never, never, never ever would I use it when referring to an African American or African. It's all about context and I don't believe you are so oblivious to not see how wrong that would be.

Note, I didn't call you stupid. I was referring to the plausible deniability of using these kind of terms such as in the way Desantis used. Like we can't tell exactly what he was doing. I'm saying the rest of us are not so stupid and unaware.
 
Mumbles said:
I'm mostly just amused that people are talking about "dog whistles"...



All I got from this is "How dare you expect straight white men to understand basic social norms!" And to that I say - welcome to 1/10th of what everyone else goes through!

Now, if I thought DeSantis were trying to win over any nonwhite voters, I'd point out that he should have learned how to not piss people off long ago - but in reality, I think he's only trying to win over white supremacists and the fools who spent years telling us all about how Dolt 45 was not at all racist, so all I can say is that "the republicans are who I thought they were". I have no actual say in any race in Florida, so I guess it's just going to be the black guy who wants to look out for everyone, versus the white supremacist aligned follow-up to the medicare cheat who will happily pollute the environment.

And if Florida as a whole keeps chosing for the latter, well, I'll feel bad for the people who live there and are against the white supremacists that are working to sink half the state into the ocean, but not much I can do about it.
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To make it clearer, let me compare it to something that has a similar component.
The admittedly real scenario of the white person or people who do things like clutching their purses more tightly when a black man approaches them, or move to the furthest point in an elevator when a black man enters, or call the police when witnessing a black person doing something that they may not call the police over otherwise.
Each scenario has in common (among other things, I am sure) a component of mentally convicting someone of ill intent when their behavior is innocent and normal.
I empathize with someone who, after experiencing this sort of treatment repeatedly, and over time, begins to resent it. I can imagine how it might provoke a reaction that further separates the victim from the majority due to this "presumption of guilt", it makes sense to me, and to most others, I think.

Is it terribly difficult to understand, then, how a "racist unless proven non-racist" attitude towards a group might provoke a similar resentment and reluctance to support an organization or party that seems to be pushing that philosophy?

It is possible that DeSantis used the word "monkey" as a deliberate attempt to display racism towards black people. That seems pointless politically, as I don't think he is in any danger whatsoever of losing the racist vote.
It is also possible that he used it completely innocently. In which case making a big deal about it portrays his opponents as quick to apply the label "racist" to any "straight white male" (is it not possible for a gay white female to be racist?)

It is also possible, that it was a calculated statement designed to provoke a reaction from vocal members of the opposition that still portrays the "left" as being very quick to apply the "racist" label. He is, in this case, not attempting to draw the racist voters (whom he already has), or the minority voters (whom he is not going to get), but is instead trying to draw the "straight white male" (and "straight white male" sympathizers) who are undecided (or maybe even registered Democrats), and feel a bit resentful at being considered guilty until proven innocent of racism.
 
acbytesla said:
You're racially insensitive. You may not be a bigot, but you're definitely clueless about this. What white person in their right mind would call an African American 'boy'? I've also used the term monkey wrench or monkey it up but never, never, never ever would I use it when referring to an African American or African. It's all about context and I don't believe you are so oblivious to not see how wrong that would be.

Note, I didn't call you stupid. I was referring to the plausible deniability of using these kind of terms such as in the way Desantis used. Like we can't tell exactly what he was doing. I'm saying the rest of us are not so stupid and unaware.
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Sorry, but "boy" is my go-to term for referring to a juvenile male human. I do not feel I need the intervention of a psychologist for that affliction.
 
Brainster said:
So Joe Biden skates on this one (about Obama in 2007):
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I kinda thought that he caught hell for that, and plausibly so.

Biden has a history of sticking his foot in his mouth and that's really one of the prime examples. Why might you think that folks have forgotten that event?
 
Distracted1 said:
Were I an independent voter in Florida, being reminded that "the left" considers me an enemy because I refer to a male juvenile as a "boy", and to foolish behavior as "monkeying around" is not going to get me to the polling booth to pull the lever for the Democrats.
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Pull the lever?

That sounds like a dog whistle for "spank the monkey."
 
The interesting thing, to me, about DeSantis's gaffe is that it can't help him, only hurt. Regardless of the intent. Those who'd respond to the dog whistle weren't going to vote for the black guy anyhow. But there's a certain number of undecideds who will be sufficiently offended by it to vote against him.
 
Trebuchet said:
The interesting thing, to me, about DeSantis's gaffe is that it can't help him, only hurt. Regardless of the intent. Those who'd respond to the dog whistle weren't going to vote for the black guy anyhow. But there's a certain number of undecideds who will be sufficiently offended by it to vote against him.
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And perhaps he is gambling that a larger number of undecideds will be pushed away from his opponent if they perceive them as being too quick to cry "racist"

Assuming, of course , that it was a calculated statement
 
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Distracted1 said:
Sorry, but "boy" is my go-to term for referring to a juvenile male human. I do not feel I need the intervention of a psychologist for that affliction.
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You may not need a psychologist, but you sure could use to learn some manners.
 
Distracted1 said:
To my thinking, applying separate manners to people based on skin tone is the same as having none at all.
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Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
 
acbytesla said:
Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
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The literal meaning of the word "can" in this context aside.

No, a "man of color" can not use the word "******".
And admonishing a couple of kids to "leave that 'son' alone" is just an awkward sentence (although he is certainly someone's son, so I guess it is linguistically acceptable), further if I said to his mother something akin to "your daughter is quite tall" I would not be in the least bit shocked if he self-identified himself to me by saying "I am a boy"
 
acbytesla said:
Then you're clueless. A man of color can use the 'N' word. We can't. A father can call his son 'boy'. A white man can refer to young white child boy and frankly they better be like under say 8. I'm not even sure I would do that. Me, I prefer the term 'son' or 'young man'. Boy isn't even a term most youngsters of any color would appreciate being called. And I assure you someone of color certainly wouldn't like it from a Caucasian.

If nothing else, it's about respecting others.
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This isn't true where I live in S. Cal. When I moved to Baltimore in the 90's I had to learn the things I couldn't say (and despite my best efforts, I messed up on 'boy' ALL the time!). All these rules and sensitivities are much more prevalent on the east coast- especially the south.
 
Sherkeu said:
This isn't true where I live in S. Cal. When I moved to Baltimore in the 90's I had to learn the things I couldn't say (and despite my best efforts, I messed up on 'boy' ALL the time!). All these rules and sensitivities are much more prevalent on the east coast- especially the south.
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Interestingly, did you feel guilty of racism when you "messed up" (as you put it) and referred to a boy as a boy (I presume)?

If someone ruled you a racist for using an innocuous term, how much energy would you devote to defending against such an accusation before simply giving up on the accuser and deciding that the two of you simply don't need each other's company?

Edit: the preceding was not a personal attack, I am not trying to put you on the spot. If you have been following the thread you will see that that is something germaine to the discussion.
 
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Distracted1 said:
The literal meaning of the word "can" in this context aside.

No, a "man of color" can not use the word "******".
And admonishing a couple of kids to "leave that 'son' alone" is just an awkward sentence (although he is certainly someone's son, so I guess it is linguistically acceptable), further if I said to his mother something akin to "your daughter is quite tall" I would not be in the least bit shocked if he self-identified himself to me by saying "I am a boy"
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My parents taught me to care about the feelings of others. To consider what I say before I say it and how the listener might feel about my words. Plain old courtesy. But I guess we weren't raised the same way.
 
My first grade teacher would begin each day with: "Good morning boys and girls." The woman was obviously a rabid white supremacist, she even made us stand while saying the pledge of allegiance.

I have never got over the horrible trauma of those early years.
 
Distracted1 said:
Interestingly, did you feel guilty of racism when you "messed up" (as you put it) and referred to a boy as a boy (I presume)?

If someone ruled you a racist for using an innocuous term, how much energy would you devote to defending against such an accusation before simply giving up on the accuser and deciding that the two of you simply don't need each other's company?
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I never felt guilty and was not accused of any racism (that I know of). I was simply 'the girl from California' and they understood that I didn't grow up with those meanings.

The first exchange I recall was when a black male friend asked why I wasn't dating a person and I said "Because he is such a boy."
"He's a what?"
"A boy!"
"You're saying he is a boy?"
"Yes, as in not-yet-a-man, childish and immature. You know, a BOY!"
"Oh, well that means something a little different here".

He explained how it could sound different than what I was used to....and we carried on with the day.

Any defense of an accusation would take me less than a minute. If the discussion took more than 5 minutes to settle, I'd probably just give up. (I'm not fond of being told what I'm really thinking- in any context.) Fortunately, the people in my life so far haven't insulted me that way.
 
acbytesla said:
My parents taught me to care about the feelings of others. To consider what I say before I say it and how the listener might feel about my words. Plain old courtesy. But I guess we weren't raised the same way.
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A good upbringing, I am sure.
My parents were more liberal perhaps. I was raised not to presume that I knew how someone else would feel about something, just tell the truth and don't call other people names.
 
Sherkeu said:
I never felt guilty and was not accused of any racism (that I know of). I was simply 'the girl from California' and they understood that I didn't grow up with those meanings.

The first exchange I recall was when a black male friend asked why I wasn't dating a person and I said "Because he is such a boy."
"He's a what?"
"A boy!"
"You're saying he is a boy?"
"Yes, as in not-yet-a-man, childish and immature. You know, a BOY!"
"Oh, well that means something a little different here".

He explained how it could sound different than what I was used to....and we carried on with the day.

Any defense of an accusation would take me less than a minute. If the discussion took more than 5 minutes to settle, I'd probably just give up. (I'm not fond of being told what I'm really thinking- in any context.) Fortunately, the people in my life so far haven't insulted me that way.
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Thank you for that. I share your disdain for being told what my "real" motives are. I feel there are a great many people who also feel that way.

As it relates to this discussion, I think some Republicans might be Trying to tap in to that emotion. I would be happier if the Democratic leadership gave a thought to that strategy.
 
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