Cont: Mueller Investigation pt3

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dasmiller said:
Even if he does, it may not help Manafort all that much. As was pointed out in a Slate article, Manafort can still be prosecuted New York, California, Virgina, and Illinois for the states' versions of the mistrial charges. If he'd been found guilty or not guilty of the related federal charges (in most of those cases), the states wouldn't have been able to go after him due to double jeopardy. But jeopardy doesn't attach if there's a mistrial . . . and Trump can't pardon state charges.
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I think the people who would be realy hurt by a Manafort Pardon are a hell of a lot Republicans running in Purple Districts. I think the backlash would pretty much guarantee a Democratic takeover of the House in Nobember. Which is why GOP leaders are begging for Trump not to do it.
 
Ziggurat said:
Bwahahahahaha!

No. Judges routinely accept guilty pleas from the innocent. And there is really no chance of appeal here.
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I can't think of a Western judge accepting a guilty plea to something that they didn't think was a crime.
 
jimbob said:
I can't think of a Western judge accepting a guilty plea to something that they didn't think was a crime.
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Can you think of a western judge accepting a guilty plea from an innocent person?
 
Ziggurat said:
Bwahahahahaha!

No. Judges routinely accept guilty pleas from the innocent.
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You will have no problem finding legal precedents then - your claim, your burden of proof

Ziggurat said:
And there is really no chance of appeal here.
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There is ALWAYS a chance of appeal if the judge decides or does something illegal, or fails to follow minimum standards such as ignoring Corpus Delecti.
 
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dudalb said:
I think the people who would be realy hurt by a Manafort Pardon are a hell of a lot Republicans running in Purple Districts. I think the backlash would pretty much guarantee a Democratic takeover of the House in Nobember. Which is why GOP leaders are begging for Trump not to do it.
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Their pleas are likely to fall on deaf ears, he doesn't care what happens to GOP

Trump does what's good for Trump!
 
Trump book keeper granted immunity.



https://www.theaustralian.com.au/ne...y/news-story/dda1a0d70eb2d4d86cf94b2a22d20969


US President Donald Trump's longtime bookkeeper for his personal and business affairs has reportedly been granted immunity in the federal probe into Trump's former lawyer Michael Cohen.

Longtime Trump Organisation finance chief Allen Weisselberg received immunity to talk to federal prosecutors in the investigation into hush money that Cohen paid to two women who claimed affairs with Trump, the Wall Street Journal and NBC News reported.
Cohen pleaded guilty to tax and campaign finance violations on Tuesday.

Though not named in the Cohen case, Weisselberg is believed to be one of two Trump executives mentioned in the suit who reimbursed Cohen and covered up the payments by saying they were legal expenses.
Weisselberg has been a Trump confidant who started working for his family in the early 1970s.
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This bookkeeper only managed the office supplies and coffee purchases.
 
smartcooky said:
You will have no problem finding legal precedents then - your claim, your burden of proof
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Already done upthread. Do keep up.

There is ALWAYS a chance of appeal if the judge decides or does something illegal, or fails to follow minimum standards such as ignoring Corpus Delecti.
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Yeah, no. Cohen won’t appeal because an appeal would throw his case back to trial. And he agreed to the plea precisely to avoid trial.
 
LSSBB said:
Citation, please, where the possibility of an overturn of the plea would be strong due to insufficient evidence according to applicable legal standards, and the judge is well aware of that possibility.
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It’s not going to be overturned because no one will appeal.
 
The Big Dog said:
Well i have also provided detailed expert explanations why he could have beat the trumped up campaign finance charges.
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Haven't been able to find any.




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Ziggurat said:
Very high. Is this news to you?
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Citation please. Your earlier citation does not cover this probability, you said. You still are not addressing the acceptable rules of evidence to avoid the possibility of an overturn, or citations to back up that a judge in a high profile case would ignore the possibility of overturn on appeal, or that an appeal is impossible.

Since you appear to feel you have expertise in these legal matters, I am asking you to back up what you are saying. So far all I see is bluster, argument from incredulity, and dismissive statements about your detractors.

In lieu of actual legal citations to back up your point of view, I feel justified in figuring it is either knowing bluster or Dunning-Kruger being demonstrated.
 
Ziggurat said:
Already done upthread. Do keep up.
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Err, no.

You quoted ONE case, the Edmonds case (which is nothing like this one), and then talked about percentages.

You said "Judges routinely accept guilty pleas from the innocent". Now you put your money where your mouth is. Find a reasonable number of cases (to meet your "routinely" claim, 10 would be a fair start) in which the judge accepted a guilty plea, when

a. The judge knew that the defendant had not committed the crime he was pleading guilty to, and

b. The judge knew that no crime had actually been committed.

Ziggurat said:
Yeah, no. Cohen won’t appeal because an appeal would throw his case back to trial. And he agreed to the plea precisely to avoid trial.
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This makes no difference what the judge would do in accepting his plea. Judges do NOT violate Corpus Delecti, they just don't. .
 
Ziggurat said:
Very high. Is this news to you?
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Cool. Please provide evidence.

Or, at least, cite a list of cases where "Western judges" have accepted guilty pleas for white collar crimes that were not committed by the defendant. Bonus points if the defendant was a lawyer himself.
 
smartcooky said:
Corpus Delecti demands that if no crime has been committed, then a defendant cannon be convicted of it, nor can he/she plead guilty to it. This is black letter law, and a cornerstone of western jurisprudence.

As you say, making an illegal campaign contribution is an actual crime. The fact that....

1. Michael Cohen (a lawyer) plead guilty to it.
2. Lanny Davis (a lawyer) allowed his client to plead guilty to it.
3. Prosecutor Robert Khuzami (a lawyer) allowed Cohen to plead guilty to it.
4. Judge Kimba Wood (a lawyer) allowed Cohen to plead guilty to it.

... is a cast iron indication that they are all satisfied a crime has, in fact been committed. Dozens of other lawyers all agree, but two Trump sycophants on this forum, you and Ziggurat, both with a combined experience in legal matters that amount to ZERO disagree and insist they are wrong.

As you are so keen on saying... Hooboy!
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If only the two people in this thread that continue to insist it wasn't a crime, and half the anchors on Fox News weren't pumping the 'it wasn't a crime' falsehood into Amurica's airwaves, we might even settle this non-debatable debate.
 
I find it laughable, but unsurprising, the FOX News is trying to spin this as "not a crime". I find it pitiful that people are falling for it. But again, unsurprising.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
If only the two people in this thread that continue to insist it wasn't a crime, and half the anchors on Fox News weren't pumping the 'it wasn't a crime' falsehood into Amurica's airwaves, we might even settle this non-debatable debate.
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Fox News really is the worst News outlet of any major newscast. Sometimes, they play it straight, but the commentators are terrible shills for the GOP. I love it when their newscasters are contradicted by their pundits.
 
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