Ed Dawkins on Allahu Akhbar

That was not your original argument; not sure what cultural erasure is going on, though. It does appear you want to erase a couple of centuries of English usage.

That was one of several points I made, which is contingent on Genghis being a poor representation of the Mongolian. It was you who started arguing about how important it is that "in English, he's calld Genghis Khan".

Yes, I'd be happy to erase centuries of English usage. What would the loss be, exactly?

This isn't about what should be;

Then why are you participating in a discussion about normative philology? Seriously? If you think the discussion is meaningless in the face of usage frequency, why engage in it at all? Why not just say, "I think discussing normative discussions of language use is stupid, all that matters is descriptivism."?


You mean Tamburlaine? Most people who are aware of him only know the play by Marlowe. His name is not common currency, unlike Genghis Khan.

That's another variant. Both are corruptions of the Persian "Timur-i Lang", Timur the Lame.
 
What does the spelling or pronunciation of a name have to do with cultural erasure?

Really? By sticking fervently to a name that bastardizes the Mongolian rather than attempting to approximate it and defending it with "it's the English name", you are erasing a bit of the Mongolian language in relation to Chinggis Khan. Perhaps that doesn't seem significant to you, but it does to many as a matter of principle.

Refusing to be respectful and attempting to approximate foreign language is a basic aspect of cultural erasure.
 
... except of course among people who study the individual and language in question.

Reluctance to revise such matters is a poor aspect on how English is generally handled. IMO there's a degree of imperial chauvinistic heritage there - if it's widely said one way by English speakers it's proper, who cares about representing other languages faithfully?

Well, Finns can't say a hard 'g', so he is known as 'Tsinghis Haan' (the 'ng' diphtong, they can manage). Not sure why the initial K in the last name is lopped off, though, K being the most prolific consonant in the Finnish language.
 
Tisk. tisk.

German|French|English
Aachen|Aix-la-Chapelle|Aachen
Aargau|Argovie|Argovia
Basel| Bâle |Basle
Braunschweig|Brunswick|Braunschweig
Donau|Danube|Danube
Kleve|Clèves|Cleves
Köln|Cologne|Cologne
Konstanz|Constance|Constance
Luxemburg|Luxembourg|Luxembourg
Mainz|Mayence|Mainz
Nürnberg|Nuremberg|Nuremberg
Pfalz|Palatinat|Pfalz
Regensburg|Ratisbon|Regensburg
Speyer|Spire|Speyer
Steiermark|Styrie|Styria
Trier|Trèves|Trier
Wien|Vienne|Vienna


And don't forget Padua and Genoa sound more mellifluous in English than they do in Italian (Padova and Genova).*





* only because we stole them from Spanish.

I've noticed that Brits (for example, BBC news readers) now pronounce Basle (formerly a silent 's' as in the French) as ''Bay-sel'.
 
Well, Finns can't say a hard 'g', so he is known as 'Tsinghis Haan' (the 'ng' diphtong, they can manage). Not sure why the initial K in the last name is lopped off, though, K being the most prolific consonant in the Finnish language.

Yeah, that's probably about as close as you'll get in Finnish.

In Swedish we say "Djingis Khan", which isn't very good if not as bad as the English one (j is unvoiced in Swedish, so it's like a consonant y). I believe it's from the German Dschingis, which in turn seems to come from the Russian Dzhingis.

I do wonder why Russian ends up with that particular representation. Intuitively I would have gone with a Tche (as in "Tchaikovsky") rather than D + Zh. It's unvoiced in Turkish, Tatar, Mongolian, Persian, Chinese etc, so I do wonder why it ended up being voiced in Russian and borrowing languages. Maybe Tche + i is just a rare syllable in Russian?
 
As a matter of taste, I prefer the hard and majestic Ghengis to the dorky-dingus dijon-mustard Djingis, or perhaps too much like magic djinn, again softening into dreams of Jeanie, with her long brown hair. Even jangly Django is too jaunty.

Ghengis seems exotic and viscious.
 
Really? By sticking fervently to a name that bastardizes the Mongolian rather than attempting to approximate it and defending it with "it's the English name", you are erasing a bit of the Mongolian language in relation to Chinggis Khan. Perhaps that doesn't seem significant to you, but it does to many as a matter of principle.

Refusing to be respectful and attempting to approximate foreign language is a basic aspect of cultural erasure.

It doesn't erase any Mongolian language, it's not an attempt to speak Mongolian.

I'm really not seeing what you think it's erasing, and I also don't see why you feel the need for things like "Really?" yes, really, I don't understand your point.
 
It doesn't erase any Mongolian language, it's not an attempt to speak Mongolian.
Exactly. If I were a scholar of Mongolian history, I'd almost certainly make some attempt to pronounce the name reasonably accurately (though are we talking modern or ancient Mongolian?) when talking to my colleagues. If I went to Mongolia, or was speaking to a Mongolian, again, it would be prudent to use a pronunciation that would be understood, in the same way that if I were speaking French I would say "Paree" instead of "Paris". If I'm speaking English to the average Briton, I would say Genghis if I wanted to be understood.
 
While you personally may not care, apparently the BBC, and CNN, and the NYT, etc. etc. do care to use the preferred names in their articles. Funny that. :rolleyes:
When I ask you why *you* care, and you say you care because BBC and CNN care, are you appealing to authority, or to popularity?
 
As a matter of taste, I prefer the hard and majestic Ghengis to the dorky-dingus dijon-mustard Djingis, or perhaps too much like magic djinn, again softening into dreams of Jeanie, with her long brown hair. Even jangly Django is too jaunty.

Ghengis seems exotic and viscious.


Django is the dogs danglies*



*colloq. Br.
 
It doesn't erase any Mongolian language, it's not an attempt to speak Mongolian.

There's a childishly easy way to turn the formulation you use here around, but I'm not going to be playing semantic games with you about what "speaking Mongolian" or "erasing language, means in this context, nor do I actually believe that you don't understand what mean.
 
There's a childishly easy way to turn the formulation you use here around, but I'm not going to be playing semantic games with you about what "speaking Mongolian" or "erasing language, means in this context, nor do I actually believe that you don't understand what mean.

Your grammar error aside, I have no idea whatsoever what you mean. Please explain for those of us watching from the fringes.

The capital of my adoptive country is know locally as Athina, as it would be rendered in English. Is Greek culture or language somehow damaged by English speakers calling it Athens?

The ancient theatre near Corinth (Korinthos) is called Epidaurus in English, rhyming roughly with dinosaur. In Greek it's Epidavros, which is very different.

You have set a very high bar for yourself, as many language pedants do. I won't be stalking you, but I will be giggling in quiet as you make mistake after mistake, where the mistakes have been defined by none other than you.
 
You have set a very high bar for yourself, as many language pedants do. I won't be stalking you, but I will be giggling in quiet as you make mistake after mistake, where the mistakes have been defined by none other than you.

I have not demanded perfect grammar from anyone, and when typing long sentences on a phone it's easy to make grammar errors that are too much of a hassle to correct. You are engaging in a pointless ad hominem.

The capital of my adoptive country is know locally as Athina, as it would be rendered in English. Is Greek culture or language somehow damaged by English speakers calling it Athens?
The vowel shift is a shift in Greek, not in English. Eta was a long epsilon
(roughly) prior to middle Greek. The differing ending makes sense since English is not a strongly inflected langugae like Greek.

The ancient theatre near Corinth (Korinthos) is called Epidaurus in English, rhyming roughly with dinosaur. In Greek it's Epidavros, which is very different.

Yes, because English generally takes Greek names from Graeco-Latin, which has different emphasis rules (typically, emphasis on third-to-last vowel). This is pretty consistent in how Greek names are rendered in English (AriSTOtle vs. AristoTEles, and so on).

While English does not render Latin (I think for practical purposes, we can group ultimately Greek words under Latin borrowings in English) perfectly consistently, there are broad patterns, and inconsistencies are generally attributable to vowel shifts. While I think it's to the detriment of English that spellings have not been revised nearly enough, these questions are much broader than a single particularly terrible romanization stumbling into the language, when similar words (other Turco-Mongol warlords' names) are rendered according to standardized rules.

If you don't see, however, how vehemently defending (while claiming not to be defending) a particularly terrible outlying representation of a foreign word with "It's the English name!" (which is circular reasoning in a normative discussion) is a form of cultural erasure, then you probably don't share the analytical framework I (and many scholars who study these things) use. To you, rendering a Mongolian name of a Mongol (who is the key figure in Mongolia's cultural heritage) in a way that completely ignores the Mongolian language is evidently value-neutral. To me, it's not, and being reasonably faithful to and respectful of the original languages has value in and of itself, and actively choosing not to do so is a value statement.
 
Perhaps it's just a matter of time?

In Europe and North America, Ulaanbaatar continued to be generally known as Urga or Khure until 1924, and Ulan Bator afterwards (a spelling derived from Улан-Батор, Ulan-Bator). The Russian spelling ("Улан-Батор") is the Russian phonetic equivalent of the Mongolian name, according to Russian spelling conventions. This form was defined two decades before the Mongolian name got its current Cyrillic script spelling and 'Ulaanbaatar' transliteration (1941–1950), however the name of the city was spelled Ulaanbaatar koto during the decade that Mongolia used the Latin alphabet. Today, English speakers sometimes refer to the city as UB.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulaanbaatar
 

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