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Merged A Proof of the Existence of God / Did Someone Create the Universe?

IWhen I was working on my BS in Applied Math, I learned that all theorems in mathematics are based on inductive logic...

Then you'd better hand that degree back. Mathematics, especially elementary geometry, is most often taught together with the deductive logic that underpins it. Only deductive proofs are accepted in mathematics.

You literally don't know the difference between deduction and induction. It's not some "typo" or repeated slip of the tongue (metaphorically speaking). You are clearly struggling with the basic concepts, and I find it impossible to believe you obtained a bachelor's degree in mathematics with such a handicap. And I don't know of any accredited engineering school in the country that would have accepted you into their graduate program without a bachelor's degree in an engineering field. You would not have received the Core Engineering curriculum from a degree in mathematics. So let's just stop trying to inflate our credentials and thump our chests, shall we?

To me his deductive logic makes no sense, I see it as a pseudo-scientific crap.

But then it doesn't seem you haven't had the proper education and experience to make that a very informed opinion.
 
You literally don't know the difference between deduction and induction. It's not some "typo" or repeated slip of the tongue (metaphorically speaking). You are clearly struggling with the basic concepts, and I find it impossible to believe you obtained a bachelor's degree in mathematics with such a handicap.

He just mixed up "mathematical induction" and "induction". Mathematical induction is a form of deductive logic used to prove properties of sets which were defined recursively, like -don't know how it's called in English- el principio de inducción completa, and la inducción desplazada which works backwards. It all takes me back to when I was 17 and in my first year at the university (Boole, Peano, and all the guys).

But I wouldn't distrust Buddha having some sort of academic achievement. After all there are hundreds of bad colleges and universities out there, and apparently Buddha's mind works with a FIFO system (first in, first out). Those things he probably learnt decades ago are forgotten and working as buzzwords, while he read Popper five months ago so Popper is now in fashion and he must keep talking all the time about him -before he also forgets it-.
 
No. It's not.



That would be interesting to see. Will you post it, please?
Which proof is this? The only Berkeley proof I know depends on his idealism. Even given his idealist philosophy, it always struck me as dubious. Without it, it is nonsensical.

If this is the proof at issue, then understanding idealism is not easy and the theory is inconsistent with positivism as I understand it. The positivists would, I think, conclude the central theses are meaningless.
 
You excluded all other possibilities. You should have added "Buddha is a cat" along with a few more.

Yes, I excluded all other possibilities because I was deliberately mocking your pathetic "proof," as you too excluded numerous possibilities. In one of my posts I even gave some examples of possibilities you ignored. My whole POINT was draw attention to one of your "proof's" more comical flaws. Thankfully you were clever enough to catch what I was throwing. What remains to be seen is if you have the intellectual honesty to apply the comparable criticism to your own precious attempt at a "proof."

Sagan had better arguments which, he thought, prove that God doesn't exist. This one is not very strong because the phrase "where God comes from' implies that God existed before the universe came to be. But when there is no instruments to measure the time, the concept of time is meaningless.

The same argument applies to the universe itself.

Where is this proof of God you've been promising?
 
We continue to wait for you to grace us by presenting here such wonderful proof



You should better mind what your mental hands are doing, not the other's.
Let us agree that if he has proved the universe was created by some being, that would be incredible enough. It would not mean that being had anything much to do with this religion or that, but it would be something.

Let us also agree that his argument depends on a weird reading of positivism, which itself is not obviously true.
 
I am trained in inductive logic only. When I was working on my BS in Applied Math, I learned that all theorems in mathematics are based on inductive logic; there is also the method of mathematical induction which is widely used to prove various theorems.

Mathematical induction is not the same as induction in the sense of logic.

The view that mathematics is based on induction is a very rare view these days. Certainly not a positivist view, which considered seriously the difference between analytic and synthetic claims.
 
This is the most interesting post so far, so I'll take time answering it.

Oh yeah, that would be great.

...

Um. How much time, exactly? Because you sure didn't start in the rest of that post. When do you think we could expect an actual reply?
 
He just mixed up "mathematical induction" and "induction". Mathematical induction is a form of deductive logic used to prove properties of sets which were defined recursively, like -don't know how it's called in English- el principio de inducción completa, and la inducción desplazada which works backwards. It all takes me back to when I was 17 and in my first year at the university (Boole, Peano, and all the guys).

These days, we tend to use the term "recursively defined", at least in the context of logic. Maybe some contexts use the term "inductively defined". Most folk would understand that term.

ETA: it's really about least fixed points for certain operators.
 
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Which proof is this? The only Berkeley proof I know depends on his idealism. Even given his idealist philosophy, it always struck me as dubious. Without it, it is nonsensical.

If this is the proof at issue, then understanding idealism is not easy and the theory is inconsistent with positivism as I understand it. The positivists would, I think, conclude the central theses are meaningless.

That's the one.
 
He just mixed up "mathematical induction" and "induction".

...which are not the same thing. They're qualitatively different, in part because of the inductive leap, and it is that "leapy" form of induction that Popper discusses. In paradoxical contrast, mathematical induction has deductive strength because it's still based on the deductive steps that underpin mathematics. It has nothing -- zero -- to do with the attempts at empiricism, falsifiability, and induction he tried to employ to falsify the first two hypotheses in his proof.

In mathematical induction there is no inductive leap because we can define relations on a set that we say hold for all members of the set -- the "completeness" that you're describing in Spanish. Then for some proposition involving that relation we can perhaps show that it holds for two members of the set because of the relation. And if we show that, we can induce that into the set as a whole via the relation since the relation is defined completely. Showing that if a proposition holds for a specific case it holds for the set is inductive because it starts with what is shown to hold for two or more elements of the set and reasons to the general case of all members of the set. But it does so in mathematics deductively, because the relation is a contrived premise in a categorical syllogism, not an observation bound by uncertainty. It is more properly deduction because the mathematician has defined a universal relation over the set. Deductive proofs work by extracting what must be true in some case from what is known to be true in all such cases. In mathematics we know it to be true because we simply defined it that way.

Turning back to Buddha's proof, if we take as a premise that the "videotape" of evidence in either case of the uncreated universe is proffered as complete evidence of such (regardless of my ability to empirically review it), then I can perhaps extract the consequent lemma that any two discrete, adjacent minutes of that tape must then be claimed to constitute a full, continuous, sequential record of those two minutes. Now I sit down and empirically verify that the first minute of videotape completely and accurately shows the state of the universe. By the mathematical style of induction and the proffered lemma I can say that the second minute, which I have not reviewed, must be identically probative and continue from the first. And by further induction, the third minute is satisfactory, and so forth. Such a "proof" would work with any length videotape, even infinitely long. But obviously such patterns of proof work only when such relations arise, which happens only in the axiomatic world of mathematics.

No, mathematical induction does not fix Buddha's broken argument, his broken philosophy, nor his flip-flopping on whether he means induction or deduction. It has nothing to do with Popper's induction, nor with any branch of positivism. Further, the statement that all proofs in mathematics are based on inductive logic is false on its face. We use mathematics to introduce beginning students to deductive patterns of reasoning. We use the natural sciences to introduce them to inductive logic. Inductive reasoning is the reasoning of drawing conclusions from evidence, usually from observation. Since Buddha claims he performs statistical analysis, I would expect him to know this intimately. Inductive reasoning, in order to be useful, requires a measure of uncertainty in the evidence and in the empirical controls. Statistics is the branch of mathematics that provides that measurement.

But I wouldn't distrust Buddha having some sort of academic achievement. After all there are hundreds of bad colleges and universities out there...

Agreed, which is why I qualified my doubt as pertaining to accredited schools of engineering. No accredited school of engineering in the U.S. will accept for graduate study a student who has not first received a bachelor's degree from an accredited engineering school. This is because such schools in the U.S. teach all engineers a core of basic engineering subjects at the bachelor's level regardless of their chosen specialization, and require that core at the graduate level. Being a professional degree, engineering has a responsibility to convey a certain minimum competence in everything the word means. A bachelor's degree in applied mathematics would not qualify him to study engineering at the graduate level in an accredited U.S. university.

Yes, if he did practice control-systems engineering, with or without a degree and license, then he did use empirical methods to verify designs, and he did use inductive reasoning to conclude from that evidence that a design probably works. That doesn't qualify one as a philosopher. And as we have seen, Buddha cannot demonstrate any degree of competence in philosophical reasoning. He's mostly just dropping names and regurgitating irrelevant history.

Those things he probably learnt decades ago are forgotten and working as buzzwords, while he read Popper five months ago so Popper is now in fashion and he must keep talking all the time about him -before he also forgets it-.

I take a dimmer view. I don't believe much of Buddha's claims to education. But in his favor, I've argued that they are irrelevant to his claims to be able to prove the existence of God. And he hasn't explicitly placed them at the foundation of his argument. So if I'm going to stay true to that argument then I musn't try to make them that foundation. His academic credentials are off-topic when he mentions them, therefore they must also be off-topic when I mention them, even to challenge them.

What I glean from this, however, is a general tenor of dishonesty which removes any benefit I might have given when doubting Buddha's preparation to formulate and defend his proof on the world stage. Insofar as his proof is based on claims to superior understanding, I fall back on the shadiness of his academic claims to undermine that basis. I don't think he's arguing in good faith, and so that's going to inform my approach to his arguments from now on.
 
Saying "That's not how evidence works" wouldn't be enough at a philosophical conference, you would have to show how it works if they give you the podium.

I would not attend a philosophical conference on the origins of the universe. I would attend a conference on astro physics.

You intrude sir. The universe is a physical thing with energy, gravity, matter, background radiation to be studied. Silly little thought games simply will not do in describing our universe. You trespass on a discipline for which you are not equipped and not needed.
 
As I promised, I am going to present a proof that someone created the Universe.

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A separate proof is needed to show that the Creator is unique.

Are you going to provide proof for either one of those statements?
 
I would not attend a philosophical conference on the origins of the universe. I would attend a conference on astro physics.

Which is why Buddha is casting as many aspersions as possible on scientific realism. And why he formulated his "proof" as little more than a contrived thought experiment, not with any actual evidence or reference to knowable fact. He did say at one point that he could provide "empirical" proof of God, but I'm beginning to believe that he's just throwing out buzzwords from science and philosophy without really knowing what any of them mean. He equates "unfalsifiable" with "false," for example.

His strategy is to note that some of his critics are indeed relying on scientific realism to affirmatively refute his proof. And to them he claims to have so much better understanding of the various competing philosophies that could apply, and simply declare realist rebuttals categorically wrong because what's dreamt of in his philosophy is so much more academically appealing or in vogue. It's like saying your apple pie isn't really apple pie because banana creme pie is so much more enjoyable. He admits up front that not everyone will accept his proof. But that merely steps into his next argument, which is that if you don't accept his proof you're just not as philosophically sophisticated as he. Because he read a book a few months ago, you know.

But not all his critics follow that pattern, so his answer above is little more than a straw man. Some of his critics, myself included, also point out that he's really not getting the other philosophies right either. His proof is a mish-mash of poorly wedded tidbits borrowed and misrepresented from various disciplines or invented out of whole cloth and wrongly attributed to great minds. He ignores such criticism because in order to refute it he would actually have to demonstrate knowledge of the fields he's raided. And this he cannot do, so he continues gaslighting and chest-thumping. His proof isn't intended for knowledgeable eyes, apparently. It seems more intended to fool some naive third party into being impressed.
 
Honestly the fact that we even tolerate yet another hollow variation on "I have a philosophy (that I obviously don't actually understand all that well), ergo I don't have to use logic/reason, ergo God" is sad.
 
Once again, I apologize for using the word "deductive" it was a typo. I meant to write "inductive" . Unlike Trump, I admit that I make mistakes.
Do not worry, I have plenty to say. I am not stalling, I thought that some members might be interested what I am doing here, so I gave a brief overview of my goals.

No need to apologize. Neither method is sufficient for the task you set yourself. The one is just as inadequate as the other. No amount of reasoning can change the fact the you set yourself an observable, physical question for which philosophy has no use.
 
Honestly the fact that we even tolerate yet another hollow variation on "I have a philosophy (that I obviously don't actually understand all that well), ergo I don't have to use logic/reason, ergo God" is sad.

Jabba's proof works if you accept his personal brand of mathematics. Buddha's proof works if you accept his personal brand of philosophy. It's all the same nonsensical pattern. "Not everyone will accept my proof." That's how we could have known from the beginning that it would be just another question-begging episode.

The same works for physics, which is where Buddha says he wants to take this. How many people have presented "proofs" that refute Einstein or the Standard Model or some other such doctrine in physics with their private methodologies that never seem to have any validity or utility outside the refutation to which they're tailored?
 
No need to apologize. Neither method is sufficient for the task you set yourself.

Which is why I gather his refocus on "goals" is a thinly veiled effort now to move the goalposts. He has figured out he can't actually provide a deductive or empirical proof for God that isn't immediately recognized and rejected as the pseudo-philosophical nonsense it is. And he's learning that he can't easily gaslight his critics into believing he's an unsung genius. So now he's trying to pretend he really just wants to talk about controversies in physics or comparative philosophy.

No amount of reasoning can change the fact the you set yourself an observable, physical question for which philosophy has no use.

And see, now he's just going to lump you in with the scientific realists and categorically dismiss you because you're one of Them. He read a book once and so now has a much better grasp on philosophy, and can look down his nose at you and cluck his tongue at you for being so unsophisticated about it. All you need is a smattering of coffeehouse gibberish and some contrived thought experiments to recognize the existence of God as a "logical necessity." Too bad for him that scientific realism rejects that approach. Positivism rejects that approach. Popper's induction rejects that approach. He can't even get the philosophy right, but wants you to think that you just don't get philosophy.
 
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Once again, I apologize for using the word "deductive" it was a typo. I meant to write "inductive" . Unlike Trump, I admit that I make mistakes.
Do not worry, I have plenty to say. I am not stalling, I thought that some members might be interested what I am doing here, so I gave a brief overview of my goals.

If you are quite done apologizing for your use of incorrect word and the explanations of your goals, then please provide this proof of God that you have promised to provide.
 
From the positivist's point of view a theory or a statement based on never-ending experiment is false (scientific realists hold the opposite point of view). For example, the statement "The laws of physics will always remain in their current form" is false.

Then that seems to me the perfect basis for a proof of the nonexistence of God. The Judeo-Christian God is defined as omnipotent, meaning he is capable of any conceivable task. However, there is only one way that the claim may be tested that a specific entity is capable of any conceivable task, which is by exhaustion; that entity must demonstrate the capability to perform every conceivable task. But there is an infinite set of possible tasks, so the only way to prove God's omnipotence, and hence existence, is a never-ending experiment. Since the claim that God exists can only be based on a never-ending experiment, by your own axioms the statement that God exists is therefore false.

Dave
 
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