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Merged A Proof of the Existence of God / Did Someone Create the Universe?

Giordano said:
I'm expecting: "Nothing comes from nothing. Except God. Because! QED"
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What I've never been able to understand is how anybody gets from that to the specific god of the New Testament, including a guy walking on water and everything. I'll grant the existence of a creator, if it helps move the proof to these questions.

Unfortunately, the closest I've ever heard to an argument is that one can read the New Testament and its truth just reveals itself.
 
The Philippine president, Rodrigo Duterte, who recently sparked outrage for calling God stupid, has courted new controversy in his largely Roman Catholic country by saying he will resign if anybody can prove that God exists.

Get to it Buddha
 
Loss Leader said:
What I've never been able to understand is how anybody gets from that to the specific god of the New Testament, including a guy walking on water and everything. I'll grant the existence of a creator, if it helps move the proof to these questions.

Unfortunately, the closest I've ever heard to an argument is that one can read the New Testament and its truth just reveals itself.
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He may have already covered that in his book?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12348693&postcount=2974
 
Loss Leader said:
What I've never been able to understand is how anybody gets from that to the specific god of the New Testament, including a guy walking on water and everything. I'll grant the existence of a creator, if it helps move the proof to these questions.

Unfortunately, the closest I've ever heard to an argument is that one can read the New Testament and its truth just reveals itself.
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Their argument has another big loophole. The people discussing are probably of average intelligence. The argument that everything was created by something is simple. The writers of the old testament have some likelihood of reaching that same conclusion and writing from that perspective.
 
Zivan said:
He may have already covered that in his book?

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12348693&postcount=2974
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No, according to the internet his book is mostly about how math and probability theory show that evolution is impossible, that DNA cannot arise from inorganic matter, and that Darwin had racist views of Africans. What Darwin's racism has to do with evolution, I could not tell you. I also am not sure what Ford's antisemitism had to do with assembly lines.
 
Buddha said:
It is possible in principle to provide an empirical proof that God exists. ...

This is a tale of two atheists, a smart one and a mediocre one, who met God. "Give us a proof that you are the Creator, " said one of them. "All right. I will snap my fingers and a new universe will come to be, " said God. " So God snapped his fingers and a new universe appeared. ...
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There is an obvious flaw with that tale: it did not happen. You don't have any actual atheist (nor theists) to show who ever met any god, and no god ever snapped their "fingers" before any humans, nor did any god ever create another universe before anybody's eyes.

I get that you suggest that the present universe qualifies as the one that came into existence by some equivalence of a finger snap, hence god, but you don't actually know that, and no one observed it happening, so there is nothing "empirical" abouth this "proof".

I give you an example of what might convince me:
If god spoke to me in a way I recognize from the Bible (say, from a fire column at night), and created before my eyes a little zoo of entirely new life forms, similar to plants and to animals of the earth, air and sea, fully developed, but based on something very different from DNA.
I'd even give him six days time to do it. That would be empirical evidence that something exists that can create life and appear in ways the Bible talks about. Not quite a universe, but it would be a start.

Now there's a tale to separate smart and mediocre atheist. And I am confident you will agree without ado that it will never happen.
 
What is all this now?

I just spoke with God and really insisted he doesn't exist.
 
Buddha said:
It is possible in principle to provide an empirical proof that God exists. However, not everyone will accept it, everything depends on individual's personal preferences.

This is a tale of two atheists, a smart one and a mediocre one, who met God. "Give us a proof that you are the Creator, " said one of them. "All right. I will snap my fingers and a new universe will come to be, " said God. " So God snapped his fingers and a new universe appeared. "This is a hallucination. You either spiked my drink with LSD or something else, or hypnotized me without my consent, " said the mediocre atheist. "God turned to the smart atheist and said, "What do you think?" "Everything is real here, there is no hallucination. You snapped your fingers and the universe appeared, as you predicted. But this was just a coincidence, the new universe would have came out of nothing even if we have not had this conversation. I know, the chance of such coincidence is minimal, but it is still not zero, " said the smart atheist. "I must give you a credit for saying this. Logically speaking, you are right," said God.

I can do better that giving an empirical proof that the Creator exists -- I can use the methods of deductive logic to prove that the Creator exists. To me existence of God is not a matter of faith but of logical necessity.
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Based on the story, I can use the methods of deductive logic to render it at least probable that God is not a Grammar Nazi.
However, as Porpoise of Life already pointed out in the first answer to the OP, it's "a made up story," it's fiction, imaginary. So it's like all those horror movies where extremely stupid skeptics who are in denial about what is obviously true end up dying because they refuse to see what is obvious to everybody else: The monsters are real ... in fiction. In reality they aren't.
In the Bible, God is real, too. In reality, no, not so much.
 
Loss Leader said:
No, according to the internet his book is mostly about how math and probability theory show that evolution is impossible, that DNA cannot arise from inorganic matter, and that Darwin had racist views of Africans. What Darwin's racism has to do with evolution, I could not tell you. I also am not sure what Ford's antisemitism had to do with assembly lines.
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Okay, to recap, what we have so far from the previous link, the OP, and his book:

1) Evolution is false

2) Reincarnation is true

3) Jesus is The Messiah

4) God can be proven using logic



I wonder if the OP will come back to this thread?
 
Loss Leader said:
No, according to the internet his book is mostly about how math and probability theory show that evolution is impossible, that DNA cannot arise from inorganic matter, and that Darwin had racist views of Africans. What Darwin's racism has to do with evolution, I could not tell you. I also am not sure what Ford's antisemitism had to do with assembly lines.
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I hope it's not the old "the probability of complex living things arising by pure chance is such and such, therefore it can't have happened" nonsense, which ignores that evolution is driven by natural selection, not pure chance.
 
The "real" God - supposedly - took six days to create a universe, and had to take a day off to rest because apparently it was fairly strenuous. This god can do it with a snap of his fingers.
 
Buddha said:
It is possible in principle to provide an empirical proof that God exists. However, not everyone will accept it, everything depends on individual's personal preferences.

This is a tale of two atheists, a smart one and a mediocre one, who met God. "Give us a proof that you are the Creator, " said one of them. "All right. I will snap my fingers and a new universe will come to be, " said God. " So God snapped his fingers and a new universe appeared. "This is a hallucination. You either spiked my drink with LSD or something else, or hypnotized me without my consent, " said the mediocre atheist. "God turned to the smart atheist and said, "What do you think?" "Everything is real here, there is no hallucination. You snapped your fingers and the universe appeared, as you predicted. But this was just a coincidence, the new universe would have came out of nothing even if we have not had this conversation. I know, the chance of such coincidence is minimal, but it is still not zero, " said the smart atheist. "I must give you a credit for saying this. Logically speaking, you are right," said God.

I can do better that giving an empirical proof that the Creator exists -- I can use the methods of deductive logic to prove that the Creator exists. To me existence of God is not a matter of faith but of logical necessity.
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A Spoof of the Existence of God
 
arthwollipot said:
The "real" God - supposedly - took six days to create a universe, and had to take a day off to rest because apparently it was fairly strenuous. This god can do it with a snap of his fingers.
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Well actually he did create the universe with a virtual snap of the fingers in just a part of one day. He took the rest of the time just getting into the details about our planet. No wonder the flat earthers think we are the centre of it all and the stars can just "fall to earth" if God wants them to.:rolleyes:
 
arthwollipot said:
The "real" God - supposedly - took six days to create a universe, and had to take a day off to rest because apparently it was fairly strenuous. This god can do it with a snap of his fingers.
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Hang on, that's not right

The "real" God supposedly took six days to create the Heaven and the Earth!

This God can create a whole universe with a snap of his fingers!
 
Yeah, light was on the first day, firmament on the second, earth and plants third, all before the sun and moon, by the way, which were on the fourth day. Fish and birds fifth, land animals, humans, and creeping things on the sixth. Hardly a snap of the fingers.
 
Buddha said:
I can use the methods of deductive logic to prove that the Creator exists
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You cannot use deductive logic to prove the existence of something that is non falsifiable. Deduction
pertains to that which is definitely true. Definite truth and non falsifiability are mutually incompatible
 
I'm sold, man.

Any god that can snap his fingers to make a universe is the goods alright. There was me thinking the Great Green Arkleseizure was legit...

I need a new avatar.
 
arthwollipot said:
Yeah, light was on the first day, firmament on the second, earth and plants third, all before the sun and moon, by the way, which were on the fourth day. Fish and birds fifth, land animals, humans, and creeping things on the sixth. Hardly a snap of the fingers.
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Interesting when you read Genesis you find that the only thing god created from nothing (Ex nihilo) is light, everything else is just a moulding or reforming of what already existed.
 
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