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Cont: Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday pt 2

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Maybe I should be POTUS? My spelling is obviously up to the job.

I wasn't born in the US, although Dad did briefly hold a Green Card*. But I do have a very visible advantage over Obama as far as legitimacy is concerned in the view of Trump supporters.

*Studying Agriculture in the UK, he did farm work in the US and the Netherlands.
 
Trump tweets

"Poll numbers plummet on the Democrat inspired and paid for Russian Witch Hunt. With all of the bias, lying and hate by the investigators, people want the investigators investigated. Much more will come out. A total scam and excuse for the Dems losing the Election!"

Then


"The Russian Witch Hunt is Rigged!"
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Trump tweets

"Poll numbers plummet on the Democrat inspired and paid for Russian Witch Hunt. With all of the bias, lying and hate by the investigators, people want the investigators investigated. Much more will come out. A total scam and excuse for the Dems losing the Election!"

Then


"The Russian Witch Hunt is Rigged!"
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https://edition.cnn.com/2018/06/22/politics/russia-investigation-june-poll/

Most Americans continue to believe that the Russian effort to influence the 2016 presidential election is a serious matter that should be investigated, but the constant criticism by President Donald Trump of special counsel Robert Mueller is taking its toll, according to a CNN poll conducted by SSRS released Friday.

The number of Americans who approve of how Mueller is handling the investigation has dropped from 48% in March to 44% in May to just 41% now, the lowest it has been in CNN's polling. Mueller has a lot of company; no one connected with this matter is coming out of it in a positive light. Mueller's favorable rating is just 32%; former FBI director James Comey's favorability is just 28%; Rudy Giuliani, one of Trump's lawyers in the Russia investigation, is viewed favorably by only 31% of Americans.

[...]

Negative views of Mueller don't mean that the public is taking Trump's side. Just 29% approve of how Trump is handling the Russia investigation. Only 35% say it is an attempt to discredit Trump's presidency. Nearly 7-in-10 think Trump should testify under oath if Mueller requests it. Another 70% would disapprove if Trump issues himself a presidential pardon, with no majority in any demographic group.

[...]

And what about the idea of impeachment? It hasn't yet caught on with Democratic leaders, who have not pushed it. Forty-two percent of Americans currently say that Trump should be impeached and removed from office, including 77% of Democrats (not surprising) and only 9% of Republicans (even less surprising).
Where does that 42% stand in historical context? It's a lot higher than support for impeaching Bill Clinton, which hovered around 29% through most of 1998, when he was impeached by the House of Representatives. It's higher than the number who supported impeaching either Barack Obama or George W. Bush (around 29%-30% supported impeaching them, suggesting that 30% is roughly a baseline of pro-impeachment sentiment for a modern president).

Support for impeaching Richard Nixon reached 43% in March of 1974. But that poll, taken by Harris, came after the Saturday Night Massacre and after the Senate Watergate hearings that dragged on for months, after John Dean pleaded guilty and cooperated with prosecutors against Nixon, after it became clear that Nixon had bugged the Oval Office, and after the existence of the infamous 18-and-a-half minute gap was revealed. The fact that Trump is already in Nixon territory without similar events already taking place is suggestive but not predictive. Nixon resigned in August of 1974 one step ahead of an impeachment vote. There's no indication any such vote is coming for Trump.
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They (as in the GOP and the Trumpers) keep repeating the narrative that the investigation has gone on long enough. I know we've done some pushback on that, but not enough. The same way GOP legislators and pundits repeat the mantra, 'it's been long enough', Democratic legislators and pundits need to repeat the mantra, the Nixon investigation took longer.

The Democrats are not effective using talking points memos. I don't understand why they don't get it.
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
They (as in the GOP and the Trumpers) keep repeating the narrative that the investigation has gone on long enough. I know we've done some pushback on that, but not enough. The same way GOP legislators and pundits repeat the mantra, 'it's been long enough', Democratic legislators and pundits need to repeat the mantra, the Nixon investigation took longer.

The Democrats are not effective using talking points memos. I don't understand why they don't get it.
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It is a problem. Truth is under constant assault. We have entered a new era here. Fox News the National Enquirer and other conservative media outlets are relentlessly propping up Trump without regard to truth. They have created a group of pro-Trump people that have deep unassailable confirmation biases that favor Trump. I don't think the long term consequences of this are knowable right now, but if Trump was younger or healthier he might be around long enough to destroy the American democracy.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
They (as in the GOP and the Trumpers) keep repeating the narrative that the investigation has gone on long enough. I know we've done some pushback on that, but not enough. The same way GOP legislators and pundits repeat the mantra, 'it's been long enough', Democratic legislators and pundits need to repeat the mantra, the Nixon investigation took longer.

The Democrats are not effective using talking points memos. I don't understand why they don't get it.
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Reality is nuanced and the truth is very often not simple, so often those that want to be truthful struggle with the inaccuracy "sound bites" require.

But Trump could be countered without dishonesty , why for instance aren't they all saying "Trump's latest lie..." that or "Trump's lying again" in all responses or "can't he ever be truthful/honest"
 
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Darat said:
Reality is nuanced and the truth is very often not simple, so often those that want to be truthful struggle with the inaccuracy "sound bites" require.
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That's BS. Sound bites and effective narratives don't have to be dishonest. But the myth is common. Liberals just don't get it, marketing science works on both sides of the aisle.

But Trump could be countered without dishonesty , why for instance aren't they all saying "Trump's latest lie..." that or "Trump's lying again" in all responses or "can't he ever be truthful/honest"
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That is coming out a lot more, at least on CNN and MSNBC. The fact Trump changes his mind hourly has become a news story that is getting more and more coverage. Also the incompetence with the immigration policy changes is a big story.

I'd like to see more 'incompetence' narratives. Those are not dishonest.
 
Darat said:
Reality is nuanced and the truth is very often not simple, so often those that want to be truthful struggle with the inaccuracy "sound bites" require.

But Trump could be countered without dishonesty , why for instance aren't they all saying "Trump's latest lie..." that or "Trump's lying again" in all responses or "can't he ever be truthful/honest"
Click to expand...


Nothing like this seems to matter any more. In the past, a real, unequivocal lie, was very damaging to a political career. People lied for sure, but maybe they made a mistake, maybe they misspoke, maybe they were misinterpreted, maybe they forgot, etc., but real unequivocal, obvious and categorical lying by politicians was unusual. Trump does it relentlessly and shamelessly. And his supporters don't seem to care.


I might make too much of the Fox News situation, but without Fox News there would be no president Trump and without the relentless pandering to this president by Fox News the Republican Party would have stood up to Trump along time ago. We have entered an era where a powerful news organization and the POTUS are working synergisticly to mislead the public. It is scary to see how easy it is to make truth unimportant.
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
That's BS. Sound bites and effective narratives don't have to be dishonest. But the myth is common. Liberals just don't get it, marketing science works on both sides of the aisle.

That is coming out a lot more, at least on CNN and MSNBC. The fact Trump changes his mind hourly has become a news story that is getting more and more coverage. Also the incompetence with the immigration policy changes is a big story.

I'd like to see more 'incompetence' narratives. Those are not dishonest.
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Unfortunately it's not BS. truth is nuanced, and saying "no" just repeats the lie. Saying that Trump lies, is met with "well all politicians lie".

Though I agree that simple messages are often missed.

And yes, we have parallels this side of the pond as well and at least your opposition party isn't led by someone who is also stupid, antisemitic, incompetent, and ideologically committed to the main disastrous policy of the government, but for diametrically opposed (and utterly implausible and undesirable) reasons.
 
jimbob said:
Unfortunately it's not BS. truth is nuanced, and saying "no" just repeats the lie. Saying that Trump lies, is met with "well all politicians lie".

Though I agree that simple messages are often missed.

And yes, we have parallels this side of the pond as well and at least your opposition party isn't led by someone who is also stupid, antisemitic, incompetent, and ideologically committed to the main disastrous policy of the government, but for diametrically opposed (and utterly implausible and undesirable) reasons.
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I hear this all the *********** time. And time and time again I cite examples of honest, effective talking points if only they were repeated as often as the GOP repeats theirs.

"All politicians lie" has worn off. Trust me, I'm a news junkie.

Nuanced or not, so what? That doesn't mean a talking points campaign will never have influence.

And as for the 'core', you don't aim messages at the core*. You aim them at the people who are still reasonably sane.

(*Aiming messages to get the vote out notwithstanding.)
 
Skeptic Ginger said:
I hear this all the *********** time. And time and time again I cite examples of honest, effective talking points if only they were repeated as often as the GOP repeats theirs.

"All politicians lie" has worn off. Trust me, I'm a news junkie.

Nuanced or not, so what? That doesn't mean a talking points campaign will never have influence.

And as for the 'core', you don't aim messages at the core*. You aim them at the people who are still reasonably sane.
(*Aiming messages to get the vote out notwithstanding.)
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The low-information voters watching Sinclair News stations?

I'm working on the principle that most people who are not low-information voters are already against Trump.
 
jimbob said:
The low-information voters watching Sinclair News stations?

I'm working on the principle that most people who are not low-information voters are already against Trump.
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I didn't say low information voters listening to alt-right radio. That's Trump's base.

Your post is a perfect example of rejecting marketing for ... reasons.

That's how we got Trump in the first place. Clinton did a poor job of rebutting the criticisms against her, and thought those complex policy solutions on her web page would carry the day.

They didn't.
 
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Darat said:
Reality is nuanced and the truth is very often not simple, so often those that want to be truthful struggle with the inaccuracy "sound bites" require.

But Trump could be countered without dishonesty , why for instance aren't they all saying "Trump's latest lie..." that or "Trump's lying again" in all responses or "can't he ever be truthful/honest"
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well because eventually people are going to get immune to baseless accusations and want a little more substance than just anti-Trump propaganda.

Like here, Mueller's "achievements" are looking worse with each passing day, a couple of bs plea deals that look like a set up. Like the Flynn deal. The consensus is growing is that there was a ton of monkey business with the FBI 302's and that McCabe (who actually lied repeatedly under oath) had a hand in it.

Here take a look: https://saraacarter.com/what-happened-during-the-michael-flynn-fbi-interview/
 
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