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"Why can't we hate men?"

The current system is far from perfect, but I'm naturally leery of radical shakeups because they can have so many unforeseen consequences, as well as initiating intense backlash from the public (which is basically a phobia of mine now, I guess).

I'm not an expert on this stuff, so what do I know, really. But radical revisions at that level would cause problems.


Radical changes aren't really needed, although there are some I'd like to see. But that's a topic for a different thread.

What is needed is to end tolerance for sexist and racist and other bigoted practices and legislation. When sexism is so widespread and commonplace that there's an actual budget allocation for victim hush money, that demands a serious re-evaluation and restructuring of accountability polices and procedures, at the very least; something that the overwhelmingly male and (currently) conservative makeup of Congress has shown little intention of doing.

It also requires changing state laws, or instituting some sort of federal law that overrides all state laws, regarding gerrymandering of congressional districts, and manipulation of the voting process and voter rolls. When you have states that can completely eliminate polling stations in predominantly-minority districts, institute discriminatory laws like voter ID and poll taxes, and actively work to stymie efforts to enact vote-by-mail and early-voting systems, with the support of the majority of their electorate, it's obvious that there is a need for non-democratic action by a higher authority.

It's not about radically revising how the system works, it's about fixing the dysfunctions and loopholes in the system so it can work more effectively, and barriers to entry for qualified candidates are eliminated.
 
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What is needed is to end tolerance for sexist and racist and other bigoted practices and legislation. When sexism is so widespread and commonplace that there's an actual budget allocation for victim hush money, that demands a serious re-evaluation and restructuring of accountability polices and procedures, at the very least; something that the overwhelmingly male and (currently) conservative makeup of Congress has shown little intention of doing.

I don't know why you're trying to tie this to conservatives. Well, I know why, but it's not valid. Every indication is that this is a bipartisan problem.

When you have states that can completely eliminate polling stations in predominantly-minority districts, institute discriminatory laws like voter ID and poll taxes,

States cannot institute poll taxes. That issue was settled a long time ago.

And voter ID requirements are common in countries all over the world, largely without controversy. They are a very elementary method of ensuring the integrity of the vote. The fact that you are categorically opposed to them, rather than simply opposed to specific implementations, indicates that either your understanding or your motivations are not what they should be.
 
It's not that simple. The sort of advances you're talking about were indeed government impositions. But they were largely impositions from one part of the government on another part. Slavery and Jim Crow were government-enforced discrimination to begin with.


Ignoring the fact that both were overwhelmingly supported, even demanded, by the white electorate in the places they were enacted. They were not impositions by government against the will of the majority, they were government policies enacted in response to the will of the majority. Racial bigotry was rampant throughout the US, North and South, at the time.

And contrary to your assertion, the most fundamental changes have required public opinion to change first. That change doesn't have to be total or unanimous, but politics is downstream from culture.


You're ignoring the fact that in nearly every case, only a minority of public opinion changed. The majority population either supported discriminatory legislation and practices, or were indifferent to it.

I can't find the article, but I recall reading somewhere that the tipping point for changes to public policy in representative republic is not majority support, but somewhere around 20-25% support. Only direct democracies need majority support.

No. Slavery remained because the issue was NOT one of majority vote. Northern states could not impose their will on Southern states through a direct vote.


But the issue was one of majority support in the states where it existed. That's why they seceded, and that is what the Lost Cause revisionism is derived from. Proponents of slavery went to great lengths to ensure that it was supported by an overwhelming majority of white citizens, regardless of the fact that few of them benefited from it, and many of the poorer citizens were hurt by its effects on the labour market. Their propaganda efforts were very effective, thanks to the prevalence of racial bigotry in the white population.

The elimination of slavery and emancipation of slaves was imposed by force on the Southern states who were adamant about retaining the institution, going so far as to mythologize it. The fact that there were many attempts to maintain de facto slavery and impose strict segregation after the war demonstrates just how popular such policies were with the majority in those states, and it took federal regulation and pressure backed by Supreme Court rulings to end them. To the point of calling out the National Guard to protect black students who enrolled in what were formerly exclusively white schools, against the violent actions of mobs of white people who opposed desegregation. (Hell, desegregation was still enough of an issue when I was a child in the '70s and '80s that there were debates over it and even some violent opposition to it in parts of the country. Eg. the "bussing" controversy.)

They would have much earlier if the North got to vote on which laws the South had to follow. Which is essentially what happened in the end.


No, it wasn't. There was no national voter referendum on the laws of the several states. Had there been so, chances are very good that slavery would have been retained since opposition to slavery was far from unanimous in the North; and some who opposed it did so on economic rather than constitutional or humanitarian grounds.

In the South, popular opposition to emancipation before the war, and desegregation after the war remained strong, and desegregation met violent opposition throughout the South for long after Reconstruction. Even in the north, de facto segregation was popular, and attempts to end it met strong opposition in many communities, albeit not as consistent or as violent as in the South.

Desegregation, like emancipation, was an example of a minority viewpoint imposed by government in violation of "democratic" principles, in service of higher principles.

We still see this today. In many of the Southern states, there is still majority popular opposition to LGBTQ rights. That's why it took a Supreme Court decision to overturn anti-homosexuality legislation in many states, and why so a large majority states passed anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendments, and even more passed additional legislation, which in turn required a Supreme Court decision to overturn.

If you look at the graphs comparing support and opposition with regards to LGBTQ rights, most of the swing from opposition to support happened after the SC struck down anti-gay laws. Prior to that, opposition was declining very slowly, or was remaining flat, with the majority in opposition to it.

We see that same pattern widely spread throughout a range of issues. Minority support pushes changes to legislation and establishes court tests of discriminatory legislation, and substantial changes to majority public opinion follows the changes in legislation.

When addressing Transgender rights in particular, opposition and support is fairly even, and depending on the poll, the sides are evenly matched, or there is a slight edge to those opposing trans rights. Yet legislation has been moving forward, slowly, on the federal level to support trans rights and end discrimination.

On the contrary side of that coin, the current federal government is pushing for more strict enforcement of cannabis prohibition, and more draconian immigration laws, despite both of these having minority support in the US, with over 75% nationwide supporting cannabis legalization, and over 80% supporting citizenship for DACA recipients.

Legislation is not necessarily tied to majority support of a particular policy or principle. Sometimes it follows the majority, more often it doesn't.

Sure. But the consequences of that are more complex than you suggest.


Care to explain the complexities you seem to think I am not suggesting? Anything in practical politics is going to be complex and difficult, even though the principles involved are profoundly simple.
 
I don't know why you're trying to tie this to conservatives. Well, I know why, but it's not valid. Every indication is that this is a bipartisan problem.


One which the liberal factions are working on reforming, while cleaning their own house, but at this time are facing strong opposition from the conservative majority who is not nearly as interested in ousting their own offenders.

States cannot institute poll taxes. That issue was settled a long time ago.


And yet some still try to enact this and other discriminatory legislation. And I notice that you've completely ignored other more pressing problems such as the elimination of polling stations in minority communities.

And voter ID requirements are common in countries all over the world, largely without controversy. They are a very elementary method of ensuring the integrity of the vote. The fact that you are categorically opposed to them, rather than simply opposed to specific implementations, indicates that either your understanding or your motivations are not what they should be.


Don't apply for the million, your psychic abilities are clearly broken. In any case, the way that voter ID laws are being enacted in the US right now is invariably discriminatory, as demonstrated by the courts consistently striking them down on ground of discrimination when they are tested.
 
Ignoring the fact that both were overwhelmingly supported, even demanded, by the white electorate in the places they were enacted. They were not impositions by government against the will of the majority, they were government policies enacted in response to the will of the majority. Racial bigotry was rampant throughout the US, North and South, at the time.

The federal government imposed the will of the majority of the US on a minority of the US. Absent that will of the majority of the US, the federal government would not have acted. That is why for decades it did not act.

But the issue was one of majority support in the states where it existed.

Sure. But it was majority opposition at the national level, the level of government which over-ruled local government.

The federal government is not some magical entity with inherent moral superiority to local governments.
 
One which the liberal factions are working on reforming, while cleaning their own house, but at this time are facing strong opposition from the conservative majority who is not nearly as interested in ousting their own offenders.

Democrat interest in the issue is primarily driven by the idea that they can use it as a tool against Republicans. The lack of any real reckoning in regards to Kennedy or Bill Clinton demonstrates that it has nothing to do with actual moral principles.

And yet some still try to enact this and other discriminatory legislation. And I notice that you've completely ignored other more pressing problems such as the elimination of polling stations in minority communities.

I have no interest in defending the closing of polling stations. I'm not reflexively pro-Republican. Feel free to say what you want on the topic, I don't have much to add.

Don't apply for the million, your psychic abilities are clearly broken.

You have that backwards: I am going by the meaning of your words, not the thoughts in your head. If the thoughts in your head are different than the meaning of the words you wrote, I cannot determine that precisely because I have no psychic abilities.

In any case, the way that voter ID laws are being enacted in the US right now is invariably discriminatory, as demonstrated by the courts consistently striking them down on ground of discrimination when they are tested.

Well, no. They are not consistently struck down, which is why there are quite a few of them in effect.
 
Democrat interest in the issue is primarily driven by the idea that they can use it as a tool against Republicans. The lack of any real reckoning in regards to Kennedy or Bill Clinton demonstrates that it has nothing to do with actual moral principles.



I have no interest in defending the closing of polling stations. I'm not reflexively pro-Republican. Feel free to say what you want on the topic, I don't have much to add.



You have that backwards: I am going by the meaning of your words, not the thoughts in your head. If the thoughts in your head are different than the meaning of the words you wrote, I cannot determine that precisely because I have no psychic abilities.



Well, no. They are not consistently struck down, which is why there are quite a few of them in effect.

Do you think a Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy could get elected in today's Democrat party? I don't. Al Franken couldn't keep his seat, and compared to them, he was a piker. Do you think a Donald Trump could win the GOP nomination again in 2020? I do. Remember, the GOP is a party that endorsed Roy Moore and almost voted him into power. I know of no similar episode of the Left in my lifetime. Clinton, sleazebag that he is, was not credibly accused of preying on children, nor did he make outrageously racist statements.
 
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I already explicitly said that equal representation isn't a problem in and of itself. Were you not paying attention?

But if you think quotas would end with men and women, you're naive. There is no limiting principle here.

That is the slippery slope fallacy. You don't know where it would lead, but one place it could lead is the principle that minorities that were oppressed and discriminated in the past will be fairly represented in Congress, through a quota system.

I don't see how that would lead to fascism. It would certainly restrict people's choices on who they can vote for, but as others have pointed out, that's already the case.
 
I do. I think Bill Clinton could have trounced Trump in 2016.

Like him or not, he had a bucketload of charm and an easy manner that his wife, as far as I can tell, doesn't. - I think she would have made a much better president than she was a campaigner.
 
I do. I think Bill Clinton could have trounced Trump in 2016.

I doubt it, and we'll never know. What we DO know is the politics of the Left now is much different than it was 20 years ago. Or even two years ago.

Do you think the Dems will nominate someone with a history of allegations of sexual harassment in 2020? I know they won't. On the other hand, I know the GOP will. That's the difference between the two.
 
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Do you think a Bill Clinton or Ted Kennedy could get elected in today's Democrat party?

Hells yes. Hillary almost got elected, and she has none of Bill's charm.

Al Franken couldn't keep his seat

No. Franken didn't try to keep his seat. We don't know how voters would have responded if he did.

and compared to them, he was a piker.

Compared to them, he has no clout.

Do you think a Donald Trump could win the GOP nomination again in 2020?

Yes. This whole raised awareness of sexual harassment was intended to knock Trump out, but it keeps knocking out liberals instead.

Remember, liberals mocked Pence for making sure nobody would have a #MeToo story about him.
 
That is the slippery slope fallacy. You don't know where it would lead, but one place it could lead is the principle that minorities that were oppressed and discriminated in the past will be fairly represented in Congress, through a quota system.

I don't see how that would lead to fascism. It would certainly restrict people's choices on who they can vote for, but as others have pointed out, that's already the case.

There are four primary restrictions on politicians right now:

1) Citizenship
2) Residency
3) Criminal status (ie, not felons)
4) Age

To the extent that these restrictions represent groups, they are not fixed groups. Your actions can change your status for the first three, and time changes the last one for everybody. Only the first two have strong group identities associated with them, but they're at the level which you need for political cohesion, and they are quite inclusive. Those group identities serve more to unify than to divide.

Separating people by race and gender (and whatever else the identity politics ideologues decide to go for next, probably sexual orientation) does not serve as a unifying force. It's very divisive. We already see that playing out, wherever identity politics is allowed to take over. See Evergreen College for a pronounced example.
 
Hells yes. Hillary almost got elected, and she has none of Bill's charm.

She also never sexually harassed anyone, nor was she accused of it. We're talking about the men who actually do this stuff, not their wives.



No. Franken didn't try to keep his seat. We don't know how voters would have responded if he did.

He resigned for a reason: pressure. That kind of pressure simply doesn't exist on the GOP side. In fact, the pressure goes the opposite way: got someone who's been accused of preying on children? Saying families were better off under slavery? Then Trump's base will DEMAND you support that person, which the GOP and Trump did, to their everlasting shame.



Compared to them, he has no clout.

Compared to who? He was a Senator of the U.S. Of course he had clout. #MeToo steamrolled over him. Weinstein had tremendous clout. Didn't help.



Yes. This whole raised awareness of sexual harassment was intended to knock Trump out, but it keeps knocking out liberals instead.

Seriously? You think people on the left like me only make an issue of sexual harassment to "knock Trump out"? You don't think we feel passionately about it because it's just plain wrong? Do you ever hang out with liberals? And Trump wasn't the catalyst for #metoo. It was a liberal Hollywood movie mogul.

Remember, liberals mocked Pence for making sure nobody would have a #MeToo story about him.

They mocked him because he apparently can't trust himself to be alone in a room with another woman without his wife present. Just what kind of urges is this guy dealing with?
 
I doubt it,
Why do you doubt it? The election was extremely close. Any little thing could have tipped the balance. Like running the vastly more popular Clinton instead of Hillary.

and we'll never know.
Which pretty much eradicates any probative value to this line of argument. Why did you bring it up, again?

What we DO know is the politics of the Left now is much different than it was 20 years ago. Or even two years ago.
I don't think we know that at all. The Left is reacting to a political controversy, but that doesn't necessarily signal a substantive change to their underlying politics.

Do you think the Dems will nominate someone with a history of allegations of sexual harassment in 2020? I know they won't. On the other hand, I know the GOP will. That's the difference between the two.
I guess we'll find out.
 
I think she would have been much more effective at the job than she was at campaigning for the job. That was the main reason I didn't vote for her.
I'm not sure I follow this reasoning.

She would have performed well, though she didn't campaign well. How is that a reason not to vote for her?
 
Why do you doubt it? The election was extremely close. Any little thing could have tipped the balance. Like running the vastly more popular Clinton instead of Hillary.


Which pretty much eradicates any probative value to this line of argument. Why did you bring it up, again?


I don't think we know that at all. The Left is reacting to a political controversy, but that doesn't necessarily signal a substantive change to their underlying politics.


I guess we'll find out.

I didn't bring up a counterfactual, I brought up what will happen in 2020. The GOP will almost certainly renominate Trump and the Dems won't nominate anyone who even looks like they might have a skeleton in their closet.

Do you disagree with that?
 
There are four primary restrictions on politicians right now:

1) Citizenship
2) Residency
3) Criminal status (ie, not felons)
4) Age

To the extent that these restrictions represent groups, they are not fixed groups. Your actions can change your status for the first three, and time changes the last one for everybody. Only the first two have strong group identities associated with them, but they're at the level which you need for political cohesion, and they are quite inclusive. Those group identities serve more to unify than to divide.

Separating people by race and gender (and whatever else the identity politics ideologues decide to go for next, probably sexual orientation) does not serve as a unifying force. It's very divisive. We already see that playing out, wherever identity politics is allowed to take over. See Evergreen College for a pronounced example.

Yes, it would be divisive, and would only be used as a last resort, and I don't think it should be done at this time. But that's not an argument that it must not be done- the Civil Rights Act was certainly divisive, as was ending school segregation.

And I still don't see how you get fascism out of all this.
 
She also never sexually harassed anyone, nor was she accused of it.

No, but she attacked Bill's victims.

He resigned for a reason: pressure. That kind of pressure simply doesn't exist on the GOP side. In fact, the pressure goes the opposite way: got someone who's been accused of preying on children? Saying families were better off under slavery? Then Trump's base will DEMAND you support that person, which the GOP and Trump did, to their everlasting shame.

I'm not wild about Trump endorsing Moore in the general, but you're misrepresenting events. From the start, Trump didn't want Moore to be the Republican candidate.

Compared to who?

Compared to Bill or Ted.

He was a Senator of the U.S. Of course he had clout. #MeToo steamrolled over him. Weinstein had tremendous clout. Didn't help.

Senators don't all have the same clout, and the pressure to resign came from one with more clout than him. Weinstein lost a lot of clout when Hillary lost. I don't think the timing is coincidental. Nor do I think we'd even have this movement if Hillary had won, and not because people would behave any better.

Seriously? You think people on the left like me only make an issue of sexual harassment to "knock Trump out"?

Not you personally. But you don't set the agenda. You aren't responsible for the exposure of anyone with clout.

They mocked him because he apparently can't trust himself to be alone in a room with another woman without his wife present. Just what kind of urges is this guy dealing with?

You mock what you cannot comprehend. The point is not that his urges are any worse than anyone else's urges. The point is that it is naive to believe that your urges are better than anyone else's. So if you want to behave better, then a very effective way of achieving that goal is to consciously remove temptation. This isn't folly, it is wisdom.

Liberals who mock Pence fall into two categories. The first simply don't care about acting better. The second want to act better, but they imagine falsely that being liberal makes them better. Being liberal is by itself enough to ensure moral superiority. Countless examples of fallen liberals have proven this to be folly.

Pence understands human nature far better than you.
 

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