Brexit: Now What? Part IV

[The Don]

Nonsense. No person in favour of Leave advocated a 'Brexit' that would leave the UK bound to follow EU rules, still paying the same as before for access to the single market, and unable to negotiate independent trade deals with non-EU countries.

How do you know this ?

Anyone promising continuing membership of the EEA was advocating that position.

 

[catsmate]

There's no need to panic. During the transition phase things will continue to operate as presently. .

A chaotic mess with politicians ignoring reality, civil servants unable to implement non-existent policy and muffled cries of "Brexit means Brexit", "Blue passports, hurrah" and "N****** out" from Brexiteers with their heads firmly in the ostrich stance?

 

[Francesca R]

All the times Boris Johnson called for Britain to stay in the single market

This is because Johnson backed leave as a strategy to become Cameron's successor. Which hasn't worked so far.

But even after the vote he was saying people would still be able to freely live and work in the EU I recall.

 

[catsmate]

The UK (and Britain/England in general) survived and thrived for 800+ years prior to joining the EU in 1973.

Mainly by stealing other people's stuff.

So I think it's pretty safe to say they'll survive long long long after they leave the EU too.

Survive? Maybe. Thrive? Nope.

Just because the fearmongering suits in Brussels try to say otherwise, doesn't make it so.

 

[ceptimus]

It's not as good as being in the EU, but it very well might be the least worst version of being out of the EU.

Given that we were already a member of the EU, would any sane person have voted for such a change, which you admit would be worse than what we already had? Remember that over seventeen million people voted 'Leave'. Do you think that all of those seventeen million people were insane?


No. What they voted for was a change that they expected to eventually be for the better. The government now needs to deliver a change that allows that possibility. Of course, it MIGHT turn out to be for the worst, but that is no excuse to accept a change which everyone KNOWS will be worse than what we had before.

 

[catsmate]

We had a few days of snow end Feb/early March that's usually growth-mageddon for the UK.

Probably won't snow post Brexit.

No the protective blanket of air pollution (relaxed air quality regulations and lax enforcement) will keep the snow away.

 

[ceptimus]

How do you know this ?

Anyone promising continuing membership of the EEA was advocating that position.

Anyone advocating such a position is a remainer. Again, no sane politician advocates a change that is guaranteed to make things worse than they already are, and no sane voter would ever vote for such a change.

 

[uke2se]

Every country, for example Uganda, has "access to the the single market".


Access to the single market is not the same as being a MEMBER of the single market. The question is, how much does that access cost and what, if any, other restrictions does that access place on a country trading with the EU.

It kind of is tho. If you are a member you have access. If you have access you are a member.

 

[ceptimus]

One of my analogies is that the Leave vote was like voting to move house without any idea where we might be moving to.

A better analogy is that a Leave vote was in favour of removing a pair of boots that were causing you discomfort.


And the course of action proposed by the people who were in favour of you continuing to wear the boots, is that you should now remove just one boot, and continue to stumble along with one foot in pain and the other one barefoot.



The sane solution would be to throw both boots away and search for a more comfortable pair.


Half measures are almost always bad - especially when it plain to everyone that the half measure change is worse than what you started out with.

 

[uke2se]

A better analogy is that a Leave vote was in favour of removing a pair of boots that were causing you discomfort.


And the course of action proposed by the people who were in favour of you continuing to wear the boots, is that you should now remove just one boot, and continue to stumble along with one foot in pain and the other one barefoot.



The sane solution would be to throw both boots away and search for a more comfortable pair.


Half measures are almost always bad - especially when it plain to everyone that the half measure change is worse than what you started out with.

That's a really bad analogy that doesn't seem to have any relevance to what we're discussing.

 

[ceptimus]

It kind of is tho. If you are a member you have access. If you have access you are a member.

Nonsense. Are you claiming that Uganda is unable to trade with EU countries? If you are claiming that you are wrong, and if you're not claiming that then you're agreeing with the point I made because Uganda is NOT a member of the Single Market.


Access to the Single Market, is NOT the same thing as being a member of the Single Market.

 

[ceptimus]

That's a really bad analogy that doesn't seem to have any relevance to what we're discussing (IN MY OPINION).

FTFY

 

[uke2se]

Nonsense. Are you claiming that Uganda is unable to trade with EU countries? If you are claiming that you are wrong, and if you're not claiming that then you're agreeing with the point I made because Uganda is NOT a member of the Single Market.


Access to the Single Market, is NOT the same thing as being a member of the Single Market.

No, I'm claiming that Uganda doesn't have access to the single market, but rather trades with the EU on other terms. The single market only exists for members of said market.

From wiki:

The European Single Market, Internal Market or Common Market is a single market which seeks to guarantee the free movement of goods, capital, services, and labour – the "four freedoms" – within the European Union (EU). The market encompasses the EU's 28 member states, and has been extended, with exceptions, to Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway through the Agreement on the European Economic Area and to Switzerland through bilateral treaties. Through the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area (DCFTA), three post-Soviet countries Georgia, Moldova and Ukraine were given access to the Single Market in selected sectors. Turkey has access to the free movement of goods via its membership in the European Union Customs Union.

 

[The Don]

Given that we were already a member of the EU, would any sane person have voted for such a change, which you admit would be worse than what we already had? Remember that over seventeen million people voted 'Leave'. Do you think that all of those seventeen million people were insane?

No, and they wouldn't need to be.

Some were out and out racists who wanted rid of wogs at any cost. For them economic collapse would be a price well worth paying.

Some people voted leave under the misapprehension that there would be an extra £350m a week for the NHS merely by leaving the EU (but not leaving the EEA).

A lot of people were horribly under-informed and/or hopelessly over-optimistic about the future position and thought that having their cake and eating it was a viable option.

No. What they voted for was a change that they expected to eventually be for the better. The government now needs to deliver a change that allows that possibility. Of course, it MIGHT turn out to be for the worst, but that is no excuse to accept a change which everyone KNOWS will be worse than what we had before.

Some voted from principle with little or no thought for the consequences. My own father voted Leave to keep immigrants out but thought he'd be long dead before the **** hit the fan economically. He *knew* the negative economic consequences and simply did not care.

 

[Francesca R]

Access to the Single Market, is NOT the same thing as being a member of the Single Market.

This is correct

No, I'm claiming that Uganda doesn't have access to the single market, but rather trades with the EU on other terms. The single market only exists for members of said market.

"Access" does generally mean being able to trade with, as advocated by leavers, not full membership. (Partial membership also exists such as Norway and Switzerland.)

 

[uke2se]

This is correct
"Access" does generally mean being able to trade with, as advocated by leavers, not full membership. (Partial membership also exists such as Norway and Switzerland.)

Then that's a very "clever" way of saying no access to the single market. You have access to trade with the EU. Not to the single market. You cannot trade with the single market. Only on the terms of the single market.

 

[Darat]

Nonsense. Are you claiming that Uganda is unable to trade with EU countries? If you are claiming that you are wrong, and if you're not claiming that then you're agreeing with the point I made because Uganda is NOT a member of the Single Market.


Access to the Single Market, is NOT the same thing as being a member of the Single Market.

Boris Johnson: ...."We could construct a relationship with the EU that more closely resembled that of Norway or Switzerland - except that we would be inside the single market council, and able to shape legislation" .....

 

[Francesca R]

Then that's a very "clever" way of saying no access to the single market. You have access to trade with the EU. Not to the single market. You cannot trade with the single market. Only on the terms of the single market.

Whatever when (most) leavers say "we can get access to the single market" they do not mean membership. Typically they believe they can get a really good deal out of the EU.

 

[uke2se]

Whatever when (most) leavers say "we can get access to the single market" they do not mean membership. Typically they believe they can get a really good deal out of the EU.

That's a good example of new-speak then.

 

[Information Analyst]

I already explained that remaining in the single market and customs union is NOT leaving the EU. It has all the drawbacks of remaining completely in the EU and none of the advantages and therefore no one would ever have voted for that option.

Apart from maintaining the majority of our trade.