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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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No one is claiming that the backspatter in the Z-film is traveling four times faster than the incoming bullet. The claim is that it is initially traveling faster than the incoming bullet.

By claiming that the back-spatter is only INITIALLY travelling faster than the incoming bullet you are IN FACT CLAIMING THE BACK-SPATTER IS TRAVELLING FASTER THAN THE BULLET.;)

Stundie Nomination right there.

To support my claim I have posted a video by a high speed camera showing a bullet hitting a blood soaked sponge and the backspatter initially traveling faster than the incoming bullet.

Which is ironic because the video doesn't show this at all, nor was it designed to prove such prattle. The video is intended to show how blood spatters.

You;) fail;)

The point is that the blood spatter visible in Z313 is instant when the bullet hits the target = shot from in front, not a delayed effect from a shot from behind.

Nope. By the time any blood/viscera is visible the bullet (fired from behind) has already exited the skull.

A qritique of this has been put forward by, Hank, but I’m still waiting for the detailed explanation of exactly what is refuted by what. An abstract claiming that blood soaked sponges gives ”different” effects than from blood filled human skulls doesn’t sound unreasonable at face value (no pun), but it is how this ”differences” translates into different speeds of the backspatter that is relevant and in need of an answer.

Obvious statements of the obvious are obvious.;)

Until this info materialize I stick to the sponge tests which are performed and sanctioned by the international blood spatter analysis expertise as realistic substitutes for the real thing.

No, they don't, not for this specific case they do not.;)
 
Who says it begin 1/9th of second after the bullet hit the head?

People good at math.

Multiple? Have any of them explained the minimum delay time in decerbrate reflexes? Any number here?

No one is claiming that a 200 pound body is violently snapping back and to the left. The claim is that JFK’s head is snapping back and to the left when hit by an incoming bullet from in front to the right.

And it has been explained by science, the latest being this:

https://www.heliyon.com/article/e00603#Declarations

*Warning: Link contains science, math, and Fyzzix:D*


- A .30-30 rifle has a muzzle velocity of 2200 ft/second and fires a 170 grain bullet weighing 0.024 pounds. Almost the same as a Carcano.

The round would have exited through the left side of the head, not the right, and wounded or killed Jackie.

It's nowhere near the Carcano.;)

- The distance between the picket fence and the limo was 30 yards which gives a velocity of 2100 ft/sec when hitting the target = momentum on impact of 50ft-lb/sec.

So, the Carcano round it larger, and moving faster, and struck with more force.

- If using a soft point hunting bullet which typically mushrooms on impact, a reasonable transfer of momentum would be, lets say, 80% = 40 ft-lb/sec

Still blows out the left side of the head, night the right. Your command of ballistics is mind-numbing.;)

- Average male head size for JFK’s body hight is 12 pounds, max 15 pounds.

Dogs and bees can smell fear.;)

No Hollywood needed.

You'd do well in Hollywood, science fiction and fantasy are hot right now.

The visible debris is traveling straight up/slightly forward which is caused by the Kronlein-Shuss effect.

And?

There are to my knowledge only one photo that shows the back of the head after the assassination and that looks like it have been taken after the restoration of his body for the funeral.

There are, one has been posted here by MJ multiple times.

The Zapruder film do not show the back of the head in any detail. It is covered in black shadow during the whole sequence and there is suspicions that the black patch is not a natural shadow but instead painted on after the film left Dallas.

It shows the back of the head well enough to prove there's no exit wound.

In the case of the x-ray-images they have to be fabricated. There is no other reasonable explanation.

Not true, the other reasonable and probable explanation is that they're accurate, and you're wrong;)

Same here + that the camera used by the autopsy photographers did not match the photos at NARA.

Not true, just another CT claim.

Written by Humes after burning his original papers after Oswald was killed. Does not confirm the x-rays in describing an entrance wound slightly above the EOP with a debris field in the lower part of the right brain vs. the x-rays showing a debris field in the uppermost part of the same right brain.

Humes had the photographs to refer to. The burning of the notes is a non-issue.
 
By claiming that the back-spatter is only INITIALLY travelling faster than the incoming bullet you are IN FACT CLAIMING THE BACK-SPATTER IS TRAVELLING FASTER THAN THE BULLET.;)
Yes I do and I have posted a link to a video with a high speed camera recording showing this in detail. The video is produced by experts in the field of blood spatter analysis and is used in education of forensic crime scene investigators.

Stundie Nomination right there.
Why?

Which is ironic because the video doesn't show this at all, nor was it designed to prove such prattle. The video is intended to show how blood spatters.

You;) fail;)
How blood ”spatters” includes at what velocity it ”spatter”. Of course. When the bullet is inside the sponge, the backspatter have reached further out from the entrance point than the bullet had reached inside the sponge = travels faster than the bullet.

Nope. By the time any blood/viscera is visible the bullet (fired from behind) has already exited the skull.
The backspatter visible in Z313 is instant from a bullet hitting the head from in front. It begins develop at 0.0004 seconds after the tip of the bullet hits the target and spreads out initially with a speed greater than that of the incoming bullet.

Obvious statements of the obvious are obvious.;)
No need for that pesky little thing called science, then?

Edited by Darat: 
Breach of Rule 12 removed.
 
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The backspatter visible in Z313 is instant from a bullet hitting the head from in front.
This is the result of letting CT websites tell you ;) what to think.

It begins develop at 0.0004 seconds after the tip of the bullet hits the target and spreads out initially with a speed greater than that of the incoming bullet.

LOL. Post your ;) qualifications for making such a goofy declaration.
 
Wait - does the fuzzy resolution and frame count of the Zapruder film allow people to calculate events to within 4/10000 of a second? What is he saying there?
 
A more personal question to you my friend. Have you ever been correct in any discussion you have taken part in? Ever? How does it feel inside to be this wrong of just about everything were you have an opinon? Everytime. Over and over.

I would have felt devasted by shame in your shoes. You don’t? How come?

Juror Number Eight continues to argue that the mere existence of an alternative explanation is sufficient to make for reasonable doubt.

However, the participants in this discussion are not locked in a stiflingly hot jury room and wishing they could end this thing and go home.

There are a number of other theorists who could be usefully discussed but it is not possible now.

:blackcat:
 
Who says it begin 1/9th of second after the bullet hit the head?

Math.

From frame 312 to 314, JFKs head is moving forward. The rearward motion starts at Z315, 2 frames after the headshot.

Multiple? Have any of them explained the minimum delay time in decerbrate reflexes? Any number here?

Yup.

From the Rockefeller Commission:

Dr. Alfred G. Olivier, DVM, Chief, Biophysics Division, Edgewood Arsenal

Dr. Werner Spitz, M.D., forensic pathologist, Chief Medical Examiner, Wayne County, Michigan - "The subsequent backward movement of the President's head can be explained by sudden decerebration. This position is well known as "decerebrate posture" and is characterized by opisthotonos, a tetanic spasm -- or seizure-like condition."

Dr. Richard Lindenberg, M.D., Director of Neuropathology and Legal Medicine, State of Maryland - "Immediately after the shot through the head the President took rather abruptly an almost erect position before slumping over to the left. This straightening is to be considered a sudden opisthotonic reflex movement due to decerebration."


- Could be a second bullet from behind.

The only bullet came from behind.

The visible debris is traveling straight up/slightly forward which is caused by the Kronlein-Shuss effect.

Wrong. It's caused by the bullet exiting out of the front right of the head.

There are to my knowledge only one photo that shows the back of the head after the assassination and that looks like it have been taken after the restoration of his body for the funeral.

Zapruder film
Nix film
Muchmore film
Moorman polaroid
Multiple autopsy photos

In the case of the x-ray-images they have to be fabricated. There is no other reasonable explanation.

Wrong. It's been looked into, the x-rays are authentic and unaltered. Feel free to read the report for yourself.

https://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/reportvols/vol6/html/HSCA_Vol6_0116a.htm

The x-rays and autopsy photos are legit. Sorry to burst that bubble.

Before we piss away more time, let's try a quick exercise.

Here is the moment of the headshot - https://i.pinimg.com/originals/91/ca/55/91ca556426bd9e5cd882db5d78c09ea2.gif

Look closely. What part of the head do you see opening up here?
 
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Wait - does the fuzzy resolution and frame count of the Zapruder film allow people to calculate events to within 4/10000 of a second? What is he saying there?
Years of laboratory testing gives an average of 0.0004 seconds reaction time for backspatter to begin developing.

That is pretty much instant.
 
I can’t answer this in kind. If I do I’ll probably get banned.

Some opponent. You can't even support your own words:

XXXXXXXXXXX

If a certain poster isn't too bust being unbelievably wrong in two threads, maybe they have an answer for this:

Originally Posted by manifesto

The two world leading expert teams in acoustic ballistics finding five rifle shots on the DPD dictabelt, in perfect topographical order, at the time sequence when the shooting took place, at the same average speed as the motorcade on Elm and a fourth shot with additional sonar analysis showing a wooping P = 1/100 000 for not being a rifle shot fired from the picket fence on the knoll within a spot of ca 1 square yard?

When will you reveal who the third team is, how they were rated and who rated them?

XXXXXXXXXXX

As far as the SVN coup that resulted in the murders of the Diem family, do you really want to infer that their deaths weren't a foreseeable result and that the Kennedy administration was shocked? Shocked! that such a thing may happened?

With as much time and energy you've spent riding on the CTists Loony Tunes trolley I'd think that a refusal to believe that a government would sanction murder looks like you're trying to talk out of both sides of your mouth.
 
IF you-know-who is serious about their blood spatter velocity = projectile velocity jive I'd like to see an expiation of how material traveling at supersonic velocities can be clearly visible but projectiles traveling at supersonic velocities can't be seen by the naked eye?
 
It would seem manifesto fails to understand that the speed of the splatter is only a function of impact speed as it relates to

a. The energy of the impacting bullet
b. the droplet size of the blood splatter

The smaller the droplet size, the lower its mass per frontal area, the more it is affected by air resistance. This is why a football goal kicker can kick a football, say, 45 yards, but if he tries to kick a ping-pong ball, it will only go a few feet no matter how hard he kicks it. The consequence of this is that when impact velocity climbs, the resulting movement of anything that is hit (such as blood splatter) does not increase at a proportional rate; its hits a pressure wall when approaching supersonic speeds.

We can reference this all back to the evidence that manifesto has posted in support of this claim, which is that JFK was 'shot from somewhere in front of him, and that the bullet was a soft point from a hunting rifle'

Sure, the abstract that manifesto posted, which shows that blood splatter can be faster than the impacting projectile, is correct, at low velocities. A heavy projectile striking a pool of blood at 1.55 m/s can cause splatter to eject faster than its impact velocity (in the example 3.59 times faster). However, as the velocity of the projectile increases, the speed of the splatter does not increase in proportion. As an analogy, a typical amateur golfer can swing the club head of a No 1 Wood (Driver) at around 95 mph, however, if you tee him up a blood soaked sponge to hit, the resulting splattered blood droplets are not going to be travelling at 340 mph. They may initially travel at close to or over 95mph, but not for very long.

When we get to the blood soaked sponge YT video manifesto posted, the splatter might be very fast (although I disagree with his contention that it is faster than the incoming bullet). However, the bullet used for this test is .22 cal, so its velocity will be less than 1150 fps. A soft point bullet from a hunting rifle will be incoming at over 2500 fps... a totally different story.

manifesto's whole ratioanle for this absurd line of reasoning is that he desperately wants the bullet to still be in Z313 (therefore in JFK's head when the front-right of his head explodes) so that he can claim the bullet passing through is the force acting to accelerate JFK's head "back and to the left". It ain't gonna happen; this contention is, simply put, a ballistic, scientific and physical impossibility. Even if the initial egress of blood droplets (the first few millimetres) is very fast, it WILL be subsonic, and therefore, at most, less then half the velocity of the bullet. Air resistance will decelerate these droplets quickly and dramatically, and by the time we SEE that large misty cloud of splatter, the bullet has moved on and is hundreds of feet away.

Further, even the contention that JFK's head movement "back and to the left" could have been the result of a bullet from the front right is utterly flawed, and only happens in Hollywood ballistics. Here in the real world, it simply DOES NOT HAPPEN as amply demonstrated by the videos and photographs posted by BStrong. I have shot enough deer, goats, thar and chamois when hunting to know that even when you shoot an animal with a kill shot to the head, the animal drops right there on the spot, sometimes literally falling straight down into its own stance. I do recall once, a chamois' head jerking back violently when I hit it with a headshot, but since I shot it from about the 8 o'clock position (6 o'clock being directly behind) it wasn't the result of anyone else shooting from in front - there are no stockade fences or triple underpasses in Arthur's Pass National Park, and although there are a lot of grassy knolls, none of theme were hiding second hunters.
 
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Yes I do and I have posted a link to a video with a high speed camera recording showing this in detail. The video is produced by experts in the field of blood spatter analysis and is used in education of forensic crime scene investigators.

And had you actually watched it you'd know that back-spatter doesn't fly until the bullet has exited the sponge. That the video is made by "Experts in the Field" is irrelevant because it's not designed to show how fast blood spatter flies, but the pattern in which it flies.

As usual you have posted something out of context and undermined your argument because the video you posted shows that spatters is not faster than the bullet that causes it.

Fail;)

Why?

How blood ”spatters” includes at what velocity it ”spatter”. Of course. When the bullet is inside the sponge, the backspatter have reached further out from the entrance point than the bullet had reached inside the sponge = travels faster than the bullet.

Two Stundies in a row. Impressive.

The backspatter visible in Z313 is instant from a bullet hitting the head from in front. It begins develop at 0.0004 seconds after the tip of the bullet hits the target and spreads out initially with a speed greater than that of the incoming bullet.

Bullet strikes from behind. The forensics is solid on this. Plus the frame-rate of Zapruder's camera is not fast enough to show the kind of detail you're alleging...

...which you'd know had you read the latest scientific paper on the headshot reaction:

https://www.heliyon.com/article/e00603#Declarations

Are the words too big? Are the numbers and symbols confusing to you?

No need for that pesky little thing called science, then?

You seem to be immune to scientific fact and the scientific process in general.;)

A more personal question to you my friend. Have you ever been correct in any discussion you have taken part in? Ever? How does it feel inside to be this wrong of just about everything were you have an opinon? Everytime. Over and over.

I'm sure a moderator will be along anytime now.
 
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The sponge tests is standard for the scientific field of blood spatter analysis. If you have other info, present it in full. Abstracts will not suffice.

Sherry Fiester was (deceased) a recognized expert in blood spatter analysis and her book is full of foot notes to published science by leading international experts in the field.

It would be impossible to find any research confirming a conspiracy without citing ”CT’s” since their findings per definition make them such in your universe, Hank.

Sorry to disappoint you.

Your problem goes far deeper than a bloody sponge test that doesn't replicate the results of gunshot wounds to the head.

Your cited expert (Sherry Fiester) herself disagrees with the conclusions you draw. Specifically she claims that two specific claims that you endorse are myths:
http://sherryfiester.com/myths.html

  • Ear witnesses are reliable
  • The fatal head shot originated from the Grassy Knoll
She disagrees with both those contentions of yours. She claims they are both *myths*. Myths!

It's her contention - contrary to yours - that the shooter was on the south end of the overpass or on the far south knoll. You place the shooter almost 100 yards away, around the corner of the north end of the overpass, on the north knoll.
https://enemyofthetruth.wordpress.com/

Quoting Fiester: "So, if we know the shot came from the front, where is front? If you superimpose a protractor over a map of Dealey Plaza with the apex at the point where Kennedy received the head shot, at a ninety-degree angle to Zapruder’s location, and draw a line representative of the 115-degree turn relative to Zapruder, it becomes obvious “front” of Kennedy is not the Grassy Knoll. Front, for Kennedy, was the south end of the triple overpass and the adjacent parking lot on the opposite side of Dealey Plaza."

Even your own cited expert disagrees with your arguments!

Hilarious.

Hank
 
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Years of laboratory testing gives an average of 0.0004 seconds reaction time for backspatter to begin developing.

That is pretty much instant.

Great, name the labs and the scientific teams involved in this years of testing.

I ask only because this is not what those labs are testing for in their work. Usually if there is film of a shooting blood spatter experts are not needed, and in the case of JFK.

Blood-Spatter science is to help detectives at a crime scene where the event has happened hours, days, or weeks in the past to help understand where the shot came from. Most of that splatter goes in the same direction as the bullet when it exits the body (depending on the round and if it exits at all), which is what everyone else sees as the front of JFK's head explodes from the exiting round.;)
 
As an aside, and for interest's sake. I found this website

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html

Very interesting information on terminal ballistics. I struggled to understand a fair bit of it, but its clear that it is not a simple science, and certainly, it will be beyond the understanding of most CTs who are only interested in simple "sound-byte" answers.
 
Great, name the labs and the scientific teams involved in this years of testing.

I ask only because this is not what those labs are testing for in their work. Usually if there is film of a shooting blood spatter experts are not needed, and in the case of JFK.

Blood-Spatter science is to help detectives at a crime scene where the event has happened hours, days, or weeks in the past to help understand where the shot came from. Most of that splatter goes in the same direction as the bullet when it exits the body (depending on the round and if it exits at all), which is what everyone else sees as the front of JFK's head explodes from the exiting round.;)
He cant because it is not true. He has a number (.0004) stuck in his head that is a mistake he has been repeating for about the third time now.
 
A qritique of this has been put forward by, Hank, but I’m still waiting for the detailed explanation of exactly what is refuted by what. An abstract claiming that blood soaked sponges gives ”different” effects than from blood filled human skulls doesn’t sound unreasonable at face value (no pun), but it is how this ”differences” translates into different speeds of the backspatter that is relevant and in need of an answer.

Until this info materialize I stick to the sponge tests which are performed and sanctioned by the international blood spatter analysis expertise as realistic substitutes for the real thing.

Well, there's your problem in a nutshell. You were provided the source of the data. It won't just 'materialize' like magic. You have to go look it up.

What you're effective saying is you won't look it up, you want it spoon-fed to you, which translates to most of us that you're not interested in testing your claims against science.

Hank
 
Years of laboratory testing gives an average of 0.0004 seconds reaction time for backspatter to begin developing.

That is pretty much instant.

You pulled this nonsense right out of your ass. Do you think that anyone, anywhere believes this bull, or are you just playing games here?
 
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