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Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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Axxman300 said:
The best part is that Manifesto and the JFK-CT crowd are giving the CIA better free advertising than their people at Langley could dream up. Think about it; the CIA is everywhere and nowhere at the same time, they control the media, write all of the history books, and conduct assassinations all over the globe.

They've made the CIA 100 feet tall with hundreds of tentacles that can reach everywhere at any time, and can conduct intricate, almost impossible covert actions with impunity.

Manifesto and his friends are giving the CIA an impressive reputation that sends chills down the spines of god-fearing people around the world*.

;););)




*...except the FSB, Mossad, MI6, and the Chinese Foriegn Services who know better.
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CT's in general seem to have a highly exaggerated notion of the ability of government entities to manipulate events and cover their tracks. As a counter-example, I like to cite the Watergate affair, wherein a President of the United States tried, and failed miserably to cover up a burglary by his re-election campaign. Now, I'm not going to say that no President ever managed to cover up a crime by people under his leadership, but it's a hell of a lot harder to do than most CT's seem to think. The truth is that it's impossible to get an organisation as big as a government working in lockstep, and for anything you do wrong (and many things you don't) there's likely to be a whistleblower around.
 
manifesto said:
No. Bknight has not answered my questions. You and bknight are two different people.

I respond to YOUR post in due course. Time is limited.
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Instead of asking him to provide exactly what I've already provided, why not respond to what I've provided?

Your time would be a lot less limited if you weren't wasting so much of it.
 
CORed said:
Well yes, a lot of people have been shot. OTOH, a pretty small percentage of those actually had movies or videos taken of the process. An even smaller percentage of those were shot in the exact location of the brain that Kennedy was shot. In fact, I think it's very likely that we are now down to a sample of one. I certainly don't claim to know for sure that Kennedy's movement was a neuromuscular reaction to being shot, but I do think it's a very reasonable hypothesis. Given other evidence that he was shot from the rear, and only the rear, it's a much more reasonable hypothesis than that it resulted from being shot from the front.
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The human nervous system is well known, muscles and anatomy too. No one is asking for an exact replica of the movements, just a schematic overview of what type of reflex and what type of muscles could have been involved.

The reason I ask is that I haven’t been able to find an answer to this. That is, no known class of human reflexes can account for the movements seen in the Z-film. None. If you disagree you have to provide the supporting information.

To state that ”it could be some kind of nerve reflex” isn’t good enough. You have to provide a reasonable detailed scenario including anatomy, muscles and known types of reflexes (there are several).

Well, I can only answer that question based on what you have posted in this thread, but on that basis, I would say yes, yes I do know far more than you about just about any topic you would care to name. But, also based on what you have posted in this thread, I would say that's a mighty low bar, so I ain't braggin'. In any event, "to your knowldedge" isn't much of a basis for any kind of meaningful conclusion.
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Very well, so, why not showing that knowledge?

Shy?
 
manifesto said:
Yes, you have very very strange ideas of reality, Hank. Keep exposing yourself for who you are, and show us your worldview. As a cautionary tale. Making yourself useful for once.

There are a number of known types of human reflexes described in the scientific litterature over the years. Most of it comming from witnessing executions, accidents, war, etc. No one except you, Hank, are expecting anyone to produce scientific results from real life testing on humans. Stuff that only the nazis and the CIA are commiting on their own citizens.
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I remind you that YOU were the one who said the tests on goats weren't good enough. You wanted to see the results on humans, you said:
manifesto said:
I didn’t request known nerve reflexes from goats, I requested such from humans, since JFK was, a human. Do you have any?
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manifesto said:
Goat:

”... the muscles of the legs are designed for a stiff-legged gait, and powerful muscles lever the neck and head against gravity. [...]

The legs kicked out [shown in a film] and the head jerked up, movements consistent with the natural movements that a startled goat would be expected to make.”​

Human:

”... the antagonistic muscles of the limbs are balanced, and regardless of the relative size of the muscles, the musculature is arranged to move the limbs upward, outward and forward.

Backward extension of the limbs is unnatural and awkward; certainly not reflexive. Likewise, the largest muscle in the back, the erector spinae, functions exactly as its name implies, keeping the spinal column straight and upright. Neither the erector spinae, or any other muscles in the back are capable of causing a backward lunge of the body by their contraction.

The reader is invited to sit on the edge of a bed and attempt to lunge backwards by muscle contraction. Such a movement is unnatural, not reflexive, and can be achieved only by relaxing, not clenching the muscles of the trunk.”​
(Thomas, Donald, 2010)
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You mean Donald Thomas, the entomologist?
This conspiracy guy? http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKthomasD.htm

Maybe he could be considered an expert on what happens when a bug gets hit by a 6.5 Carcano round ;), but otherwise, no.

The opinions of actual experts were cited right here to you here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12292424&postcount=3253

...and you ignored it entirely, to offer the opinion of the conspiracy addict who thinks he's qualified to analyze purported echoes in Dealey Plaza and now, human reactions to Carcano bullet wounds to the head.

Is Donald Thomas the do-everything go-to guy for conspiracy questions now? I always thought that was Dr. Wecht.

Hank
 
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manifesto said:
No. You are still thinking hanging up side down.

If YOU claim that the movements of JFK in connection to the shot in Z312/3 can be explained by some sort of reflex, you have to provide the name of that type of reflex, cite its caracteristics and argue for its application on the movements seen in the Z-film.

It’s not me who have to explain how it was not so.

Get it?
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You are the one who claims a shot from the right front, therefore it is you that has to provide a citation of what would happen during this GSW, and I'll bet it isn't back to the left
 
Axxman300 said:
All of the energy of the bullet is focused on the exit wound at the front of the head. By then the bullet had shattered, and all of the kinetic energy is directed toward the inner wall of the skull where the fragments blasted through, pushing the head backward.

Same principle in whiplash, it's why you hurt your neck instead of break your nose.
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What the man said, simple physics.:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
 
bknight said:
You are the one who claims a shot from the right front, therefore it is you that has to provide a citation of what would happen during this GSW, and I'll bet it isn't back to the left
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What? You claim that the movements seen in the Z-film can be explained by ”some kind nerve reflex”.

What kind of nerve reflex are you talking about?
 
manifesto said:
The reason I ask is that I haven’t been able to find an answer to this.
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Yes, you have found an answer.

Opisthotonus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opisthotonus

"Opisthotonus or opisthotonos, from Greek roots, ὄπισθεν, opisthen meaning "behind" and τόνος tonos meaning "tension", is a state of severe hyperextension and spasticity in which an individual's head, neck and spinal column enter into a complete "bridging" or "arching" position.[1][2] This abnormal posturing is an extrapyramidal effect and is caused by spasm of the axial muscles along the spinal column."

"It is seen in some cases of severe cerebral palsy and traumatic brain injury or as a result of the severe muscular spasms associated with tetanus. It can be a feature of severe acute hydrocephalus."

Decerebrate Posture

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003299.htm

Decerebrate posture is an abnormal body posture that involves the arms and legs being held straight out, the toes being pointed downward, and the head and neck being arched backward. The muscles are tightened and held rigidly. This type of posturing usually means there has been severe damage to the brain.

Considerations
A severe injury to the brain is the usual cause of decerebrate posture.

Opisthotonos (a severe muscle spasm of the neck and back) may occur in severe cases of decerebrate posture.

Decerebrate posture can occur on one side, on both sides, or in just the arms. It may alternate with another type of abnormal posture called decorticate posture. A person can also have decorticate posture on one side of the body and decerebrate posture on the other side.
 
manifesto said:
What? You claim that the movements seen in the Z-film can be explained by ”some kind nerve reflex”.

What kind of nerve reflex are you talking about?
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You are not going to trap me into answering your scenario. And no I have no expertise in that area, but from what others have posted there could be a number of reason. One of which is not a gunshot from the front. If one existed, the brain is destroyed preventing nerve reflexes. You did see the hole in his skull? He was most likely brain dead at the instant of the GSW from LHO.
 
traxy said:
Just wondering why you continue asking questions for which you've already been provided the answers.
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Hank says: I know! I know! (frantically waving hand).

Fourth Grade teacher nods in Hank's direction, and says: Yes, Hank?

Hank says: It's because his purpose is not to solve the crime, but merely to prolong the conversation, to make it appear he has a point.

(Hank sits down, smiling at his classmates).

Hank
 
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manifesto said:
When debating bknight, I’m debating bknight. When debating Traxy, I’m debating Traxy.
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Yes, exactly the methodology used by Robert Prey when he couldn't respond to the questions either.

One at a time,
one point per post,
I didn't respond to your points because I asked the other guy to respond,
I only have so much time and there's so many of you....​

Is there a class these guys take to be consistent in their responses to questions they can't answer?

Hank
 
HSienzant said:
Hank says: It's because his purpose is not to solve the crime, but merely to prolong the conversation, to make it appear he has a point.
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:thumbsup:

Pretty easy to spot the people interested in having a discussion and possibly learning something new vs. the people who are only here to argue.

I do get a kick out of painting that second group of people into a corner and watching them squirm. It's a sickness.
 
manifesto said:
Hello Hank. What is your lowest low when it comes to argue a lost cause?
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Honestly? Back when I was a conspiracy addict, I tried to convince my brother that JFK's arms would come to his throat when he shot from the front by punching him near his throat. ;)

Then I read the Warren Commission 26 volumes of evidence and the HSCA 12 volumes of evidence and switched sides.

What has been your lowest point thus far?

Was it ignoring all the questions you can't answer?
Citing hearsay?
Utilizing logical fallacies like begging the question, straw man arguments, and ad hominem?
Quotes out of context?
Citing non-experts to justify your opinion?
Citing a Nth generation grainy photo to establish smoke on the knoll?
Claiming the witnesses who said the shots came from the railroad tracks couldn't mean the railroad tracks on the railroad bridge?
Ignoring all the hard evidence?
Citing conspiracy cites without verifying any of their claims?
Pretending the hard evidence should get discarded because a witness disagrees with it?
All of the above?​

Hank
 
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traxy said:
Yes, you have found an answer.

Opisthotonus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opisthotonus

"Opisthotonus or opisthotonos, from Greek roots, ὄπισθεν, opisthen meaning "behind" and τόνος tonos meaning "tension", is a state of severe hyperextension and spasticity in which an individual's head, neck and spinal column enter into a complete "bridging" or "arching" position.[1][2] This abnormal posturing is an extrapyramidal effect and is caused by spasm of the axial muscles along the spinal column."

"It is seen in some cases of severe cerebral palsy and traumatic brain injury or as a result of the severe muscular spasms associated with tetanus. It can be a feature of severe acute hydrocephalus."

Decerebrate Posture

https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/003299.htm

Decerebrate posture is an abnormal body posture that involves the arms and legs being held straight out, the toes being pointed downward, and the head and neck being arched backward. The muscles are tightened and held rigidly. This type of posturing usually means there has been severe damage to the brain.

Considerations
A severe injury to the brain is the usual cause of decerebrate posture.

Opisthotonos (a severe muscle spasm of the neck and back) may occur in severe cases of decerebrate posture.

Decerebrate posture can occur on one side, on both sides, or in just the arms. It may alternate with another type of abnormal posture called decorticate posture. A person can also have decorticate posture on one side of the body and decerebrate posture on the other side.
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Or I can accept the bug doctor's opinion that Manifesto cited.

Hmmm, tough call. :D

Hank
 
manifesto said:
The human nervous system is well known, muscles and anatomy too. No one is asking for an exact replica of the movements, just a schematic overview of what type of reflex and what type of muscles could have been involved.

The reason I ask is that I haven’t been able to find an answer to this. That is, no known class of human reflexes can account for the movements seen in the Z-film. None. If you disagree you have to provide the supporting information.

To state that ”it could be some kind of nerve reflex” isn’t good enough. You have to provide a reasonable detailed scenario including anatomy, muscles and known types of reflexes (there are several).

Very well, so, why not showing that knowledge?

Shy?
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I believe Hank gave this link a few pages back.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/pdf/lattimer.pdf
 
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