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Cont: The Trump Presidency VI

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Steve said:
People in many countries do that. So why single out Iran?
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More importantly, why embolden hardliners that do such things, and weaken moderates there? Dolt 45 seems to think nothing more than "Me am hate Obama! Me ruin him!", not realizing that Obama's legacy is already set, and he's merely cementing his place alongside failed presidents like Buchanan and Harrison.
 
logger said:
How about fighting a proxy war to kill Israelis? How about being the largest sponsor of terror around the world? How about subjugating women and children with their backward oppressive religion? How about hanging people publicly from cranes?

Why does this even need to be explained? Because the left has a soft spot for regimes like Iran, NK, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia and a few others.
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Again, you're conflating the people with the regime. Do you think every Iranian wants people hanged from cranes and gives money to Hezbollah? That would be like me thinking every conservative wants to grab pussy, cheat on their wives, pay off pornstars, and fantasize about dating little girls.
 
logger said:
How about fighting a proxy war to kill Israelis? How about being the largest sponsor of terror around the world? How about subjugating women and children with their backward oppressive religion? How about hanging people publicly from cranes?

Why does this even need to be explained? Because the left has a soft spot for regimes like Iran, NK, Venezuela, Cuba, Russia and a few others.
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So on this basis Saudi is an enemy of America?

No Iranians were involved in 9/11. Iran opposes ISIS. Iran struggles to stabilise the middle east; it supports the regimes in Iraq and Syria against Saudi funded terrorists. Israel, a proxy for the US, has carried out many terrorist attacks in Iran. I think you will find Israel has attacked and killed more Iranians than vice versa. You will find Israel started killings Iranians before Iran was funding Hezbollah. US interference in Iran pre-dates the current Iranian regime.

It is sometimes helpful to put yourself in your enemies place. Try to think as your enemy would think. Make the arguments your enemy would. If the US wants to improve relations with Iran (and vice versa) it needs to halt the proxy low level war against Iran waged by Israel a US proxy. Whilst there are frequent military strikes explicitly against Iran by Israel how can there be peaceful relations?
 
Planigale said:
It is sometimes helpful to put yourself in your enemies place. Try to think as your enemy would think. Make the arguments your enemy would.
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That's something that conservatives avoid at all costs.

Firstly, it complicates things by muddying the waters and suggesting that there may be a range of options and views as opposed to those adopted at that point in time - heck conservatives often disavow views they themselves held previously

Secondly, it humanises the enemy. By viewing them as people with a potentially rational response to a set of problems and challenges, it reduces the ability to view them as cartoonish villains.

The thing is, this simplified approach isn't necessarily always a bad thing. Too much consideration for one's opponents can lead to confusion and inaction. In this case however, the reduction of complex international issues to "me and my friends good, you and your friends bad" is counterproductive IMO.
 
logger said:
How about subjugating women and children with their backward oppressive religion?
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Nowhere near at the level of Saudi Arabia, who we have no problems with. Twice as many women as men attend university. There are ongoing attempts to shut them out of certain majors, so not perfect by any means.
 
Foolmewunz said:
To be fair, a lot of smoke but no fire. The route to investigate is the Novartis payments. They are accountable and would need to answer. The timing of the four payments lends me to believe that they're campaign contributions. The first two are dated appropriately, and the latter two could well be responses to fund-raising efforts by Cohen or the Trump campaign. I'd dearly love to find that Novartis had a drug up for approval at the FDA at that time, but I can't find anything (although my Google Fu is legendarily bad). OTOH, they are also very fond of acquisitions. Any buyouts subject to government approval out there?

Many old European companies still go by the good old days and insist that bribery is just part of doing business. Novartis is currently being investigated for doing so in Greece. http://www.dw.com/en/novartis-under-investigation-for-bribery-in-greece/a-37230558
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Bribery?
How vulgar. You mean consultancy fees and commission.
 
The Don said:
And "leftists" love Russia so much that they were the ones pushing for the harsher sanctions against the wishes of the Trump Administration :rolleyes:
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I'd be more supportive of taking action in North Korea if the US had a track record of improving things.
We flatly do not. More, I'm concerned about the impact on our allies like South Korea and supposed allies like China having to deal with any fallout from it. After all, I doubt logger will want North Korean refugees coming here. I'm not a fan of telling people were going to do something, then leave them to clean up the mess.
 
dudalb said:
Probably a total mystery to people in the Pentagon also.
A quick strike a la Iraq in 1981 is out of the question;the Iranian nuke program is too well dispersed and protected for that.
I have a theory the real aim is "regime change" in Iran..which would lead to a bloodbath that would make Iraq look like a walk in the park.
I have no love whatsoever for the Iranian regiem,and if would vanish off the face of the earth tomorrow the world would be a lot better off but the idea we can overthrow it is silly.
I think that Bolton and his ilk really want revenge for the Iran Hostage Crisis the handling of which they see as the start of all America's problem with radical Islam.
Never forget, Bolton is an apologetic suppoters of the 2003 war with Iraq.
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I am pretty sure Bolton is totally unapologetic in his support of the 2003 war in Iraq.
 
Mumbles said:
Oh, I didn't. Bolton's another fantastically stupid person in terms of planning and temperament.

My question, however, is how they're planning on the manpower needed to invade/occupy a country like Iran in the first place. We certainly couldn't rely on any ally to jump in on such a matter, simply decapitating the regime would turn into a massive mess, and last I heard we were absurdly overextended to begin with.

At best, of course, Iran will continue to honor their agreement with the other signing countries, and the US will be increasingly isolated.
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Draft baby Draft! The new republican moto.
 
Minoosh said:
Nowhere near at the level of Saudi Arabia, who we have no problems with. Twice as many women as men attend university. There are ongoing attempts to shut them out of certain majors, so not perfect by any means.
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Yea the Iranian public seems pretty good, their leadership isn't so great but forcing regime change isn't likely to be productive in achieving the leadership we in theory want.
 
dudalb said:
Maybe when the body bags start coming home at least some of the Trump supporters will wake up.
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Not to be incredibly cynical, but I doubt that.

Even when the casualties were piling up in Iraq and Afghanistan did the American public significantly push to end either conflict? The general response from the talking heads was that "if we leave now, their sacrifice will have been for nothing."

The sight of body bags coming home worked in the Vietnam War - by Desert Storm it was becoming old hat. Now, its like seeing the weather on the local news.
 
Funny how a song can capture the spirit of a generation so well...

But all too soon, we hit the moon, and covered up the sky
They built their bombs, and aimed their guns, and still I don't know why
The dominoes tumbled and big business roared
Every night at six, they showed the pictures and counted up the score
I know it's true, oh so true
'Cause I saw it on TV

The old man rocks among his dreams, a prisoner of the porch
"The light" he says
"At the end of the tunnel was nothin', but a burglar's torch"
And them that was caught in the cover are all rich and free
But they chained my mind to an endless tomb
When they took my only son from me
I know it's true, oh so true
'Cause I saw it on TV
I know it's true, oh so true
'Cause I saw it on TV.

John Fogerty - I Saw It On TV
 
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