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Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

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Late stage alcoholics (that is, not mere heavy drinkers, who can get through two bottles of spirits and two bottles of wine every day [cf Steve Marriott]) get drunk after just a couple of sips. Such a person does NOT 'need more alcohol' to get drunk.*

So, what level of psychology did you study to, or does your knowledge come straight off the internet?

So, what was Marriott and Simon doing waiting for her when she got off the plane. Reminds me of newspapers who whisk controversial 'celebrities' away for an 'exclusive' to sell papers and line their pockets. For example, David Mellors' brunette, or David Beckham's lay behind Victoria's back.

In effect the late Mr Marriott was a Max Clifford (look him up) type flogging sensationalist stories to the media.

What WAS he doing meeting her off the tarmac and conducting a press conference.

Most people on criminal charges spend all their money on a good lawyer, not a PR agent.

*ETA: Do you not read your own link?

"Once a person reaches the end stage of alcoholism, she must stay continuously drunk to keep withdrawal symptoms at bay. At this point, her tolerance for alcohol decreases" . Stop and ponder on what this sentence means.

Clearly she didn't need a good lawyer because of the 60 million Italians she could have picked to commit murder with, she happened to pick one who had mafia connections to rig a Supreme Court verdict, twice. Gosh I thought you knew that :mad:
 
In your reasoning then, because Curatolo may have not been noticeably high by onlookers, a blood test would have shown he was not "high" on heroin, too? I see.

Hmmmm..."you don't think so" is not evidence of anything except your need to be as negative as possible when it comes to Knox and Sollecito.
By the way "skank" weed is weak or ineffective weed. Or maybe that's just another typo and you meant "skunk" weed which has 2 or 3 more THC than normal weed. :rolleyes:

Long-term heroin users can function on large doses of heroin at a level which would kill a non-heroin tolerant person.

There is little that is recreational at that level of usage.
 
<snip nonsense>

So, what was Marriott and Simon doing waiting for her when she got off the plane. Reminds me of newspapers who whisk controversial 'celebrities' away for an 'exclusive' to sell papers and line their pockets. For example, David Mellors' brunette, or David Beckham's lay behind Victoria's back.

In effect the late Mr Marriott was a Max Clifford (look him up) type flogging sensationalist stories to the media.

What WAS he doing meeting her off the tarmac and conducting a press conference.

Most people on criminal charges spend all their money on a good lawyer, not a PR agent.

<snip nonsense>


So, Vixen. Let's disregard the dishonest attempt at strawmen "responses" and go back to baby steps here, eh?

Ready?

Here we go.

Was your claim that Marriott arranged a private charter to bring Knox back from Italy:

a) Correct, and the product of intellectual honesty and proper research,

or

b) Incorrect, and the product of intellectual dishonesty and piss-poor "research"?

Which is the right answer, Vixen? (a) or (b)? Looking forward to your response.
 
Long-term heroin users can function on large doses of heroin at a level which would kill a non-heroin tolerant person.

There is little that is recreational at that level of usage.


Tell it to "smells just fine" Curatolo, Vixen. He was a long-term heroin addict, wasn't he. Do you think this fact ALONE made for a credible, reliable witness, Vixen? (i.e. before we even get onto the other myriad gigantic pointers to unreliability and lack of credibility underpinning his claims....)
 
Pictured: Toto making a rare appearance at PMF headquarters

29-wwc-bhagwan.w710.h473.jpg
 
Clearly she didn't need a good lawyer because of the 60 million Italians she could have picked to commit murder with, she happened to pick one who had mafia connections to rig a Supreme Court verdict, twice. Gosh I thought you knew that :mad:


I'd also love Vixen to tell us all (with credible supporting evidence of course) just how much money she believes Knox and/or her family paid Marriott (and/or Gogerty Marriott), and for exactly what services.

(Hint to Vixen: all the credible, reliable evidence supports only the premise that Marriott and his firm provided nothing more than low-level media management and message-unity services to Knox and her family, and for either no charge or a nominal fee. But away ye go, Vixen! Provide proper evidence to the contrary, why dontcha?!)
 
So, Vixen. Let's disregard the dishonest attempt at strawmen "responses" and go back to baby steps here, eh?

Ready?

Here we go.

Was your claim that Marriott arranged a private charter to bring Knox back from Italy:

a) Correct, and the product of intellectual honesty and proper research,

or

b) Incorrect, and the product of intellectual dishonesty and piss-poor "research"?

Which is the right answer, Vixen? (a) or (b)? Looking forward to your response.

It's embarrassing. It's a 'I'm going to believe what I want to believe. I don't need no stinking evidence.' Or worse. 'I'm going to ignore the evidence'. Which Vixen has been doing since day one. If Amanda had taken a private plane, there wouldn't have been footage of her at not one, but two commercial airports right before and after the British Airways flight leaving Rome to London and London to Seattle. Coincidence? I don't think so.
 
Knox' claim to have amnesia is absurd.

Why on earth would you invent a strawman like this? It does your "theory" (whatever loopy set of factoids you end up claiming) no credit to simply invent stuff like this.

Read Anna Donnino's testimony at trial. If you do not know who Donnino is then stop commenting on stuff you have no knowledge of.
 
Vixen said:
Knox' claim to have amnesia is absurd.
Why on earth would you invent a strawman like this? It does your "theory" (whatever loopy set of factoids you end up claiming) no credit to simply invent stuff like this.

Read Anna Donnino's testimony at trial. If you do not know who Donnino is then stop commenting on stuff you have no knowledge of.

Ok, it seems that Anna Donnino resisted defence lawyer's Carlo Dalla Vedova's questioning about this issue, aided by constant interruptions from the prosecution as well as F. Maresca.

Be that as it may, Donnino admitted to bringing her own personal experience into the interrogation room, as a way of "establishing rapport". In her testimony she would admit to everything up to a suggestion that she had told Knox that she'd had amnesia. It is strange to read that testimony because of the active way prosecution and Maresca actively interfered with Dalla Vedova's questioning.

After Donnino's testimony, Knox made a Spontaneous Declaration as is afforded all accused in Italian procedure. Knox reiterated that it had been Donnino who led her down the "amnesia" road.

Amanda Knox said:
There
was this aggressive insistence about the message that I received and replied to Patrick, really
aggressive! They called me “a stupid liar”, from everywhere… there was also this story of the
trauma that this Donnino had told me about and then after that she suggested that this could have
been the same situation that happened to me. In the sense that right while I couldn’t remember
very well because I was traumatized and because of this I should be able to remember something
different. Then these slaps on the head that I really did receive… it’s true, I’m sorry, that’s the
way it was! I wanted to say these things, thank-you.​
Regardless, no one has ever claimed that Knox herself claimed to have had amnesia. Except for guilters, who nine years after this was dealt with at trial continue to get salient facts wrong.

ETA - Mignini requested that this Spontaneous Declaration be forwarded to his office, as he was assembling evidence against Knox for defamation for claiming to having been hit - a defamation of which she was eventually cleared.

What a gong show.
 
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For the record, I researched alcoholism a while back for an article I was writing about how so many famous novelists/playwrights were alcohol addicted (Hemingway, Eugene O'Neill, F Scott Fitzgerald, etc) so am perfectly well aware of what delirium tremens is. Fact is, after a certain stage, after 20 years of heavy drinking, alcoholics no longer get the pleasure they once had. They drink to stop withdrawal symptoms. True, they get drunk almost immediately, but skip the jovial merry stage, social drinkers enjoy. They do not 'need more alcohol to get drunk', they need less.

Likewise, long term heroin users. They take 'smack' just to function normally, to stave off 'the horrors' (cold turkey).

Thus, Curatolo would not have been high, as a long-term addict, it would have been his every day demeanour.

If 'weed' (no, I don't think so, 'skank' more like) there is no way it would have wiped Knox and Raff's memories clean.

Knox' claim to have amnesia is absurd.

For someone who has done a degree in psychology I am surprised that you are not familiar with the impact of heroin on visual memory. Relevant information I would have thought for instance;

Eur Rev Med Pharmacol Sci. 2011 May;15(5):524-31.
The impact of heroin on visual memory.
CONCLUSION:
Heroin abuse leads to damage of delayed visual memory, whereby for the observed effect intake of the substance for a period longer than one year is necessary.

AND

Visual memory of black and white male heroin and nonheroin drug users
Journal of Abnormal Psychology 90(5):486-9

'Like polydrug abusers, heroin addicts evidenced interference in immediate, short-term memory, confirming earlier findings of marked perceptual disturbances among detoxified addicts.'

So regardless of whether heroin gives you a high or not. It does interfere with visual memory and the longer the use the greater the impact. Whilst it would be wrong to dismiss evidence purely on a basis that a heroin addict was morally inadequate, it is certainly relevant that long term heroin use would impair visual memory. Given that the witness was claiming to be able to identify persons unknown to him at some distance in twilight many months later and given inconsistencies in his testimony the contribution of heroin to impaired visual memory is certainly relevant.
 
Ok, it seems that Anna Donnino resisted defence lawyer's Carlo Dalla Vedova's questioning about this issue, aided by constant interruptions from the prosecution as well as F. Maresca.

Be that as it may, Donnino admitted to bringing her own personal experience into the interrogation room, as a way of "establishing rapport". In her testimony she would admit to everything up to a suggestion that she had told Knox that she'd had amnesia. It is strange to read that testimony because of the active way prosecution and Maresca actively interfered with Dalla Vedova's questioning.



Oh I think the court testimony shows significantly more than this. This is the key exchange between Dalla Vedova and Donnino:

Dalla Vedova: Do you remember that you also mentioned to Knox that in this personal experience of yours (which you had recounted to Knox) you had suffered some form of trauma, on account of which you were unable to remember the episode of how your leg fracture happened?

Donnino: Yes, that's correct, I told her about that.


Now, in the context of Knox's interrogation, the ONLY reason why Donnino could possibly have felt it apposite to tell Knox about an incident where she (Donnino) had suffered so-called traumatic amnesia.... would have been that the police were urging Knox to "remember" the "truth" of what she actually did/experienced on the night of the murder*, and Knox was adamant that she simply couldn't remember anything along the lines of what she was being instructed to remember, and Donnino was offering Knox a plausible explanation as to why she (Knox) wasn't able to "remember" this "truth".

Frankly, there can be no other reasonable explanation as to why Donnino might have been telling Knox about the phenomenon of traumatic amnesia (with a handy personal anecdote to reinforce the plausibility of it all). It most definitely doesn't fit with anything as anodyne as Donnino simply trying to "establish rapport" with Knox - it's a highly specific anecdote which is specifically and exclusively to do with traumatic memory loss.

Oh, and it's also well worth remembering that the police and PM would have been Donnino's "friends" in this equation - as well, of course, as being her employer (and, of course, her potential future employer....). It certainly isn't hard to see how Donnino might be inclined to spin her recollection in favour of the police/PM (and how there would be zero reason for Donnino to spin her recollection in favour of Knox). It's also easy to conceive of a scenario where Donnino came in to meet with the police and PM at least once in advance of her court appearance, to, ermmm, *finesse* her story.


* Bear in mind, also, that Perugia Chief of Police De Felice let the cat out of the bag the following morning when he triumphally told the world's media that the police had actually "known" the "truth", even while Knox was not telling them that "truth", and that eventually Knox had "buckled" and told them "what (they) already knew to be the truth. In other words, this makes it clear that the police definitively had a narrative that they were trying to *persuade* Knox to tell them in that interrogation. And this in itself lends further credibility to Donnino's leg-break-traumatic-amnesia story being a way of trying to persuade Knox that there was a plausible reason why she might have blocked out her memory of the "truth" that the police were trying to get her to admit to them.
 
So regardless of whether heroin gives you a high or not. It does interfere with visual memory and the longer the use the greater the impact. Whilst it would be wrong to dismiss evidence purely on a basis that a heroin addict was morally inadequate, it is certainly relevant that long term heroin use would impair visual memory. Given that the witness was claiming to be able to identify persons unknown to him at some distance in twilight many months later and given inconsistencies in his testimony the contribution of heroin to impaired visual memory is certainly relevant.


Yes to all you wrote.

And I don't think the vast majority who feel there are gigantic and unsalvageable fails in the credibility of Curatolo in respect of his long-term heroin dependency and his other mental health issues are doing so on the basis of any sort of value judgement (though of course this is the straw man that the pro-guilt community have reached for many, many times previously....). Rather, as you point out, the fatal flaws are directly related to important damage to physiological and mental acuities, which in turn cause inevitable damage to things like reliability of memory, reliability of vision, reliability of temporal and spatial matters, and so on.

There are so very many ways in which Curatolo's claims were so grossly unreliable and lacking in credibility (in addition to everything related to the above paragraph, there was also the fundamental day-conflation issue with his claims themselves) that - as I've stated before - I find it beyond extraordinary to understand just how and why the Massei and Nencini courts could accept his claims as part of the proof of Knox's/Sollecito's guilt....
 
Oh I think the court testimony shows significantly more than this. This is the key exchange between Dalla Vedova and Donnino:

Dalla Vedova: Do you remember that you also mentioned to Knox that in this personal experience of yours (which you had recounted to Knox) you had suffered some form of trauma, on account of which you were unable to remember the episode of how your leg fracture happened?

Donnino: Yes, that's correct, I told her about that.


Now, in the context of Knox's interrogation, the ONLY reason why Donnino could possibly have felt it apposite to tell Knox about an incident where she (Donnino) had suffered so-called traumatic amnesia.... would have been that the police were urging Knox to "remember" the "truth" of what she actually did/experienced on the night of the murder*, and Knox was adamant that she simply couldn't remember anything along the lines of what she was being instructed to remember, and Donnino was offering Knox a plausible explanation as to why she (Knox) wasn't able to "remember" this "truth".

Where I differ with you is that every time Dalla Vedova point blank asked about it being Donnino's suggestion to Knox that she'd had amnesia, Donnino denied it.

Donnino would walk right up to that, as your example of testimony-snippet shows, which makes it all the more remarkable that instead of answering "yes" to the final, blunt question, she'd deny it.

The remarkable way that the PGP and haters handle this is akin to the way John Follain handled it in his book, "A Death in Italy," which the publishers promised was "the definitive account".

Follain doesn't even name the translator and elides right to Knox "snapping" about the suggestion that Lumumba had been involved. "She buckled and told us what we already knew," is the quote which fits this, as you point out.

Anyway, my point is that at trial Donnino was well prepared to specifically deny telling Knox she'd had amnesia, while at the same time agreeing with practically everything else that would lead most sane people to believe she had.

Add to this the courtroom theatrics from both the prosecution and (incredibly) Francesco Maresca to harass Dalla Vedova's time with the witness.
 
Where I differ with you is that every time Dalla Vedova point blank asked about it being Donnino's suggestion to Knox that she'd had amnesia, Donnino denied it.


Ah no, I'm right with you on this as well.

But my argument is that it's essentially IMPOSSIBLE to draw any other inference from Donnino telling Knox about her own traumatic amnesia than that Donnino was trying to explain to Knox how she (Knox) might also be suffering from traumatic amnesia. IMO, as I said, it's impossible, for instance, to reconcile Donnino's selection of this particular, specific anecdote with some sort of general attempt to "gain rapport" with Knox. That makes no sense whatsoever.

As I also said in my post, I think it's easy to conceive of a scenario where Donnino and the police/PM had a get-together. And it's entirely feasible that Donnino told them that she wasn't going to flat-out lie about what she'd factually said, if she was asked about it on the stand. Therefore, they were all stuck with Donnino admitting she'd told Knox the traumatic amnesia story. But as to WHY Donnino had chosen to tell Knox that particular story....well, Donnino could easily be persuaded to bat those questions aside.
 
Ah no, I'm right with you on this as well.

But my argument is that it's essentially IMPOSSIBLE to draw any other inference from Donnino telling Knox about her own traumatic amnesia than that Donnino was trying to explain to Knox how she (Knox) might also be suffering from traumatic amnesia. IMO, as I said, it's impossible, for instance, to reconcile Donnino's selection of this particular, specific anecdote with some sort of general attempt to "gain rapport" with Knox. That makes no sense whatsoever.

As I also said in my post, I think it's easy to conceive of a scenario where Donnino and the police/PM had a get-together. And it's entirely feasible that Donnino told them that she wasn't going to flat-out lie about what she'd factually said, if she was asked about it on the stand. Therefore, they were all stuck with Donnino admitting she'd told Knox the traumatic amnesia story. But as to WHY Donnino had chosen to tell Knox that particular story....well, Donnino could easily be persuaded to bat those questions aside.

Surely this is how anyone quickly gains a rapport with another person... you share some of your most horrific moments in life. "I see you have herpes; I once had a staff infection and almost died. Let's be friends!"

FWIW, I completely agree with your interpretation. I also agree with Planigale above re; heroin and delayed visual memory.
 
I agree an interpretor shouldn't be playing detective, or asking leading questions. Having said that, I don't believe Donino's reference to her own amnesia had any effect, other than to pass Knox a life line.

Rapport might last momentarily, but there is no way an innocent person would still be claiming amnesia three weeks later as an excuse for not helping the police.

After all, she didn't see the body did she? What has she got to be post-traumatic about?
 
I agree an interpretor shouldn't be playing detective, or asking leading questions. Having said that, I don't believe Donino's reference to her own amnesia had any effect, other than to pass Knox a life line.

Rapport might last momentarily, but there is no way an innocent person would still be claiming amnesia three weeks later as an excuse for not helping the police.

After all, she didn't see the body did she? What has she got to be post-traumatic about?

This is an insanely moronic post.
 
I agree an interpretor shouldn't be playing detective, or asking leading questions. Having said that, I don't believe Donino's reference to her own amnesia had any effect, other than to pass Knox a life line.

Rapport might last momentarily, but there is no way an innocent person would still be claiming amnesia three weeks later as an excuse for not helping the police.

After all, she didn't see the body did she? What has she got to be post-traumatic about?


Are you seriously this incapable of understanding what was going on here?

I'll explain it to you.

1) As of around midnight on 5th/6th November 2007, the police and PM believed (erroneously, but we'll leave that for the moment) that Knox really had met with Lumumba on the night of the murder and had taken him to the cottage whereupon he'd sexually assaulted and murdered Kercher.

2) But Knox was unwavering in her claim to have spent all of that evening/night alone with Sollecito in his apartment.

3) The police/PM therefore believed (erroneously...) that Knox for some reason wasn't telling them the "truth".

4) Donnino seems to have offered Knox one apparently-plausible reason why she might sincerely not be offering up the "truth": that Knox had experienced traumatic amnesia during the assault murder, and this was preventing her from remembering that she'd even been present.

5) I'm sure the police and PM were unconcerned whether Knox really was suffering some form of traumatic amnesia or whether she was cynically lying to them - all that they needed was for Knox to "buckle" (remember that charming turn of phrase from de Felice...?) and tell them the "truth" they already (thought they) knew.


Now, all of that aside, you still seem to be labouring under the gross misapprehension that there's any credible, reliable evidence whatsoever that Knox (or Sollecito) participated in any way in the Kercher murder. Because you seem to be bandying around some sort of jaded fact-based (or hysterical/vindictive-based??) belief in Knox's factual participation. I'm curious as to how you still apparently cannot realise that Knox is precisely as guilty/not-guilty/innocent as every single person within (say) 30 miles of Perugia on the night of the murder who cannot definitively prove that he/she cannot possibly have participated in the Kercher murder. How is it the case that you still hold that belief, Vixen?
 
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