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Ed Breaking: Mueller Grand Jury charges filed, arrests as soon as Monday

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Segnosaur said:
Yeah I know the *tap was in place weeks before the raid... but the only phone call with Trump that was mentioned was the one that took place after the raid. (Not sure if that one was the one mentioned as being recorded, but again its the only one the article references.)
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*tapp
 
Emily's Cat said:
Why not explain to me why she's full of **** for being angry at an environmental policy causing her life-saving medicine to increase by a massive amount?
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Either the pharmaceutical company is indulging in sharp practice and took the opportunity to abuse the legislation.

or

The actual cost, to the environment, of the medicine your friend was using was way, way higher than the ten bucks she was paying and the pharma company need money to cover the R&D of a new propellant that doesn't rip the sky apart.


I'm guessing the former, but I'm confused as to why you, or your friend, think the price of the medicine shouldn't cover all of the costs that come along with manufacturing and using it.
 
3point14 said:
Either the pharmaceutical company is indulging in sharp practice and took the opportunity to abuse the legislation.

or

The actual cost, to the environment, of the medicine your friend was using was way, way higher than the ten bucks she was paying and the pharma company need money to cover the R&D of a new propellant that doesn't rip the sky apart.


I'm guessing the former, but I'm confused as to why you, or your friend, think the price of the medicine shouldn't cover all of the costs that come along with manufacturing and using it.
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I'm using a generic inhaler with the same CFC free propellant. Costs me $6 over counter no script. The propellant costs nothing in a dose that size.
 
a_unique_person said:
I'm using a generic inhaler with the same CFC free propellant. Costs me $6 over counter no script. The propellant costs nothing in a dose that size.
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Which would indicate that it's the private, for profit company that's causing the problem, not the government legislation, which the private company seem to have used as an excuse to shaft their customers.


People seem to be getting upset at the government for the shafting their taking from an opportunistic pharmaceutical company. I think the US meme of 'government bad!!'* is so well fed that anything bad that happens has to be the fault of the government.






*That's the sum total of it. It's not a subtle or well thought out position, but it's held very firmly by lots of people in the US. And they say you can't do social engineering, pah! :)
 
3point14 said:
Which would indicate that it's the private, for profit company that's causing the problem, not the government legislation, which the private company seem to have used as an excuse to shaft their customers.


People seem to be getting upset at the government for the shafting their taking from an opportunistic pharmaceutical company. I think the US meme of 'government bad!!'* is so well fed that anything bad that happens has to be the fault of the government.
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Maybe it's the equivalent of the UK "EU Bad" meme where any popular measures (like EU legislation making mobile calls in the EU so much cheaper) are claimed by the government and any unpopular measures are blamed on the EU, regardless of whether they were a factor.

As you say, in the US it cannot be gouging from free market private companies, it must be the government's fault :rolleyes:
 
Except I gather that Emily's point wasn't "this thing that people are thinking is not stupid," but rather "this is the stupid thing that people are thinking."

Properly assigning blame in our eyes does nothing to dissuade people swallowing the outrage-flavored tripe.
 
3point14 said:
I'm guessing the former, but I'm confused as to why you, or your friend, think the price of the medicine shouldn't cover all of the costs that come along with manufacturing and using it.
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In fact Free Markets 101 says it has to…
3point14 said:
Either the pharmaceutical company is indulging in sharp practice and took the opportunity to abuse the legislation.
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Agreed, the real issue is placing blame accordingly. It’s really unlikely that following the regulation is really the source of the price increase. “Greedy drug company” is probably to generic though. The underling issue seems to be the US legal system, it’s susceptibility to being manipulated with money and how that plays out with the patent system.

Stickily speaking if you have:
Well know drug typically administered by propellant
Well know propellant

Putting them together should not be a patentable invention because it doesn’t meet the “non-obvious” requirement.


The problem is that it’s not up to the patent office to make the final decision on this, it’s actually something decided by the courts when a dispute gets that far. If you have the money you can hold onto a patent that would normally not be valid or infringe on one that is simply by making it too expensive to fight in court. For some however I guess it’s just easier to not deal with the real issues and just blame the environmental regulations instead.
 
Beelzebuddy said:
Except I gather that Emily's point wasn't "this thing that people are thinking is not stupid," but rather "this is the stupid thing that people are thinking."

Properly assigning blame in our eyes does nothing to dissuade people swallowing the outrage-flavored tripe.
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Her anecdotes were framed as showing that it's reasonable for her friend to blame the scientists who identified CFCs as a cause of global warming, and the government who implemented a policy of banning it. It was an illustration of how policies that are for the greater good can make things worse for individuals.

The general point is right - just because something has a beneficial effect in aggregate doesn't mean that every single person that it effects will be better off. The particular example was a bad one, however, as it didn't take into account all the factors that caused the price of Emily's friend's medication to go up.
 
Squeegee Beckenheim said:
Her anecdotes were framed as showing that it's reasonable for her friend to blame the scientists who identified CFCs as a cause of global warming, and the government who implemented a policy of banning it. It was an illustration of how policies that are for the greater good can make things worse for individuals.

The general point is right - just because something has a beneficial effect in aggregate doesn't mean that every single person that it effects will be better off. The particular example was a bad one, however, as it didn't take into account all the factors that caused the price of Emily's friend's medication to go up.
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Side note, but while some CFC’s can be strong greenhouse gases, we don’t emit enough of them to have anywhere near the climate impact our CO2 emissions cause. From a mainstream climate science perspective, they are essentially a non-issue. This isn’t to say they don’t have other significant environmental issue but wrt climate change it’s more likely to be denier presenting them as an alternative cause to global warming so they can say doing something about CO2 isn’t required.
 
Aren't we in the Mueller thread?

Judge in Manafort case says Mueller's aim is to hurt Trump

Asked for the un-redacted Mueller mandate apparently.

A federal judge expressed deep skepticism Friday in the bank fraud case brought by special counsel Robert Mueller's office against former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort, at one point saying he believes that Mueller's motivation is to oust President Donald Trump from office.

Although Mueller's authority has been tested in court before, Friday's hearing was notable for District Judge T.S. Ellis' decision to wade into the divisive political debate around the investigation.
"You don't really care about Mr. Manafort's bank fraud," Ellis said to prosecutor Michael Dreeben, at times losing his temper. Ellis said prosecutors were interested in Manafort because of his potential to provide material that would lead to Trump's "prosecution or impeachment," Ellis said.
"That's what you're really interested in," said Ellis, who was appointed by President Ronald Reagan.
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But this, talk about hypocrisy, or irony maybe:
Ellis repeated his suspicion several times in the hour-long court hearing. He said he'll make a decision at a later date about whether Manafort's case can go forward.
"We don't want anyone in this country with unfettered power. It's unlikely you're going to persuade me the special prosecutor has power to do anything he or she wants," Ellis told Dreeben. "The American people feel pretty strongly that no one has unfettered power."
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T.S. Ellis summed up the Special Counsel’s Office as, "We said this was what [the] investigation was about, but we are not bound by it and we were lying."

He referenced the common exclamation from NFL announcers, saying: "C'mon man!"

This should really come as no surprise to avid readers of this thread
 
logger said:
Oh no, it looks like the government CANT do anything they want, so sad!
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The Big Dog said:
T.S. Ellis summed up the Special Counsel’s Office as, "We said this was what [the] investigation was about, but we are not bound by it and we were lying."

He referenced the common exclamation from NFL announcers, saying: "C'mon man!"

This should really come as no surprise to avid readers of this thread
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Explain how this is an overstep of the mandate, but Ellis most certainly did not. 'You shouldn't bring charges on this criminal act because you don't care about this criminal act' is an astonishingly stupid argument from a federal judge. It is more the kind of argument I'd expect from personality cultists on the internet with no real legal insight.
 
The special counsel argues that Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein granted them broad authority in his May 2, 2017 letter appointing Mueller to this investigation. But after the revelation that the team is using information from the earlier DOJ probe, Ellis said that information did not “arise” out of the special counsel probe – and therefore may not be within the scope of that investigation.

“We don’t want anyone with unfettered power,” he said.
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Checks and balances, good for him.
 
tyr_13 said:
Explain how this is an overstep of the mandate, but Ellis most certainly did not. 'You shouldn't bring charges on this criminal act because you don't care about this criminal act' is an astonishingly stupid argument from a federal judge. It is more the kind of argument I'd expect from personality cultists on the internet with no real legal insight.
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He’s putting a check on the out of control federal government. Something about the Mueller charade taking over another investigation because as folks on the right said, mueller had to get something. So he stole an investigation from other investigators. BAHAHAHAHAHA
 
tyr_13 said:
Explain how this is an overstep of the mandate, but Ellis most certainly did not. 'You shouldn't bring charges on this criminal act because you don't care about this criminal act' is an astonishingly stupid argument from a federal judge. It is more the kind of argument I'd expect from personality cultists on the internet with no real legal insight.
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Yeah, I don't quite understand that either but we didn't hear Manafort's legal argument. At least part of it was that some prosecutor (not sure which one) had seen the violations and chose not to act.

I think we also need to consider Mueller may have heaped it on. The other charges pending in the DC circuit might be where the real criminality lies and this could be something more minor in order to have state charges that Trump can't pardon.

But the judge gives Trump fodder. We'll never hear the end of it.
 
logger said:
He’s putting a check on the out of control federal government. Something about the Mueller charade taking over another investigation because as folks on the right said, mueller had to get something. So he stole an investigation from other investigators. BAHAHAHAHAHA
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There are rules about Special Counsel and it seems clear that Mueller and his team are not following them.
 
logger said:
He’s putting a check on the out of control federal government. Something about the Mueller charade taking over another investigation because as folks on the right said, mueller had to get something. So he stole an investigation from other investigators. BAHAHAHAHAHA
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Nonsense. Manafort is a criminal. Just like his boss.
 
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