Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

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I do not know the number of frames who has to be included in your ”reasonable”, which is kind of, the point.

Why can't you answer a simple question?

Look at the picture. Does the white car appear to you to be in relatively the same position in both shots? Allowing for a few frames either direction.

It's a simple question man. I'm literally asking for your opinion here.
 
There were lots of reported vehicle back firings, common in motorcade where they stop and go, stop and go. And, there is the multiple witness reports and the short loud impulse pattern just before the detected rifle shots and, the fact that Connally could have ’reacted’ or ’acted’ for some other reason or non reason in Z-160.

Lots of uncertinties.

Find me a single witness report of any of the vehicles in the motorcade backfiring at any point in the route prior to entering Dealey Plaza.

There were lots of reports, right? Just one or two will do.
 
Why can't you answer a simple question?

Look at the picture. Does the white car appear to you to be in relatively the same position in both shots? Allowing for a few frames either direction.

It's a simple question man. I'm literally asking for your opinion here.
No, it is not my opinion that car-5 is in the same position in H-648 as in Z-150.

Is this your opinion?
 
No, you have presented no OVERLAPPING pictures needed tu make a REAL ”epipolar geometrical” analysis with stereo imaging and thereby pinpointing the exact position of Hughes, which is needed to make a correct triangulation desiding exactly where car-5 is positioned in H-648.

Again, you are using terms you do not understand.

It is not the located objects that need to overlap, its the time period in which the the object is co-located in the two films that needs to overlap.

Here is a nice, simple explanation that anyone with a brain can understand

FilmSync.jpg


1. An object N in frame 220 of Film A is located at X in that frame.
2. N can be seen in the overlapping time period at the same X in frame 580 of Film B

Since Film A is running at 30 frames per second, if the object can be seen at located at Y in Frame 134 of Film A then the object is where it was 2.9 seconds before it was filmed at X ... (220-134)/30

Since Film B is running at 25 frames per second, if the object can be seen at located at Z in Frame 695 of Film B then the object is where it was 4.6 seconds after it was filmed at X ... (695-580)/25

The time elapsed between when N was at Y and N was at Z is 7.5 seconds.

This method is ALL YOU NEED TO DETERMINE TIMES.
No epipolar geometry needed.
No perspective analysis needed.
 
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Again, you are using terms you do not understand.

It is not the located objects that need to overlap, its the time period in which the the object is co-located in the two films that needs to overlap.

Here is a nice, simple explanation that anyone with a brain can understand

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ijyug2kc41a22z5/FilmSync.jpg?raw=1[/qimg]

1. An object N in frame 220 of Film A is located at X in that frame.
2. N can be seen in the overlapping time period at frame 580 of Film B

Since Film A is running at 30 frames per second, if the object can be seen at located at Y in Frame 134 of Film A then the object is where it was 2.9 seconds before it was filmed at X ... (220-134)/30

Since Film B is running at 25 frames per second, if the object can be seen at located at Z in Frame 695 of Film B then the object is where it was 4.6 seconds after it was filmed at X ... (695-580)/25

The time elapsed between when N was at Y and N was at Z is 7.5 seconds.

This method is ALL YOU NEED TO DETERMINE TIMES.
No epipolar geometry needed.
No perspective analysis needed.
1. How do you know that N is at exactly the same place in A-220 as in B-580?

2. Why is Myers falsely claiming doing an epipolar geometrical analysis when he clearly doesn’t?
 
No, it is not my opinion that car-5 is in the same position in H-648 as in Z-150.

Fantastic, thanks for the answer. Here's the link again.

https://m.imgur.com/a/Hl3Dy5u

Can you have another look and describe what differences you observe in the position of the white SS car at the intersection of Houston and Elm between the 2 films. What is observably different between them?
 
Find me a single witness report of any of the vehicles in the motorcade backfiring at any point in the route prior to entering Dealey Plaza.

There were lots of reports, right? Just one or two will do.
DPD’s Bill Courson:
”Police officers have opinions that they spread amongst their own ranks which in many cases may be a joke, just like some of the motor jockeys in the escort back-firing those old Harley-Davidsons.”

[...]

”The motorcade was nearly over, so they back-fired them a couple of times and made noise behind them to make Kennedy jump a bit.”

Do you want more?
 
Fantastic, thanks for the answer. Here's the link again.

https://m.imgur.com/a/Hl3Dy5u

Can you have another look and describe what differences you observe in the position of the white SS car at the intersection of Houston and Elm between the 2 films. What is observably different between them?
They are taken from two completely different vantage points, one from in front/side and one from behind. You can’t assume what is disputed.

Exact position and exact speed are the critical unknowns which deside if there was a couple of extra seconds for McLain to reach the spot in time for the first shot.
 
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1. How do you know that N is at exactly the same place in A-220 as in B-580?

Because I can see N is at X in both frames.

- I am walking across a zebra crossing.
- As I step across the centreline of the road, a photographer standing on the south side-walk takes a photograph of me.
- Another photographer standing on top of a building on the north side of the road, also takes a photograph of me, also as I step across the centreline of the road.

We do not need to do an epipolar geometric analysis of these photos to determine that I was on the zebra crossing, stepping across the centreline at the time the two photos were taken. We do not need to know the angles at which the photographs were taken, or the zoom ratio, or the speed I was walking. All we need to see is that I am located on top of a fixed reference point (the road centreline on the zebra crossing) in both photos to know that the two photos were taken at the same time.


Why is Myers falsely claiming doing an epipolar geometrical analysis when he clearly doesn’t?

You'll have to ask him that.... why don't you

https://www.linkedin.com/in/dalekmyers


ETA: IMO, the White Secret Service car appears to be very close (within a few frames) of being in the same physical position on the road in H-648 as it is in Z-150, i.e., on Houston beginning to turn left into Elm. Even if there is a car length or two difference, it doesn't matter... 11 mph is 5m per second... there could be 30 to 40 frames difference and the time error will one be about 2 seconds at most... not enough to put McLain anywhere near where he needs to be for the acoustic dictabelt theory to work.
 
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DPD’s Bill Courson:
”Police officers have opinions that they spread amongst their own ranks which in many cases may be a joke, just like some of the motor jockeys in the escort back-firing those old Harley-Davidsons.”

[...]

”The motorcade was nearly over, so they back-fired them a couple of times and made noise behind them to make Kennedy jump a bit.”

Do you want more?

Yeah, the part where he said they did that on Elm Street.
 
They are taken from two completely different vantage points, one from in front/side and one from behind. You can’t assume what is disputed.

You didn't answer my question.

What observable.differences are there in the position of the SS follow up car between the two films? You're disagreeing that the films show the same point in time from multiple points of view, but curiously can't explain why that is.

The Zapruder film, the Nix film and the Muchmore film were shot from 3 different vantage points and yet I can sync them exactly. Why is this different?
 
You didn't answer my question.

What observable.differences are there in the position of the SS follow up car between the two films? You're disagreeing that the films show the same point in time from multiple points of view, but curiously can't explain why that is.
It is differcult to pint out difference since they are from two completely different vantage points. You do not know the exact position in Hughes, nor the speed in the relevant timeframe and can therefore not assume what you are trying to prove, that Z-150 is in synch with H-648.

You have to prove this with no uncertainty. Myers doesn’t do this. Can you?

The Zapruder film, the Nix film and the Muchmore film were shot from 3 different vantage points and yet I can sync them exactly. Why is this different?
The have non-disputed overlapping sequences. Zapruder and Hughes have not. Small difference in percieved position and speed makes all the difference.

- Hughes exact position not known.

- Car-5’s position in Hughes not known.

- Average motorcade speed on Houston in the relevant timeframe not known.

- Car-5’s different speeds in relevant timeframe not known.

- Epipolar geometry analysis that are not such.


There is wiggleroom enough to allow for McLain to reach the spot for the first shot. If you disagree you have to prove it was not.
 
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- Hughes exact position not known.

Not required to fix Car 5's location

- Car-5’s position in Hughes not known.

Yes, it is known.

JFK-hughes648.png

We can see it is turning from Houston into Elm in or about frame H-648 - just after passing the County Records Building (white building in centre frame) and before the Dal-Tex building (red with white fire escapes).

- Average motorcade speed on Houston in the relevant timeframe not known.

Not required to fix Car 5's location
Not required for timing because the frame rates of the Hughes and Zapruder films are known.

- Car-5’s different speeds in relevant timeframe not known.

Not required to fix Car 5's location
Not required for timing because the frame rates of the Hughes and Zapruder films are known.

- Epipolar geometry analysis that are not such.

Not required to fix Car 5's location

There is wiggleroom enough to allow for McLain to reach the spot for the first shot. If you disagree you have to prove it was not.

We have proved it, over and over again. You just stubbornly refuse to accept the obvious because doesn't not fit into your fantasy world... there is simply not enough wiggle room; McLain cannot possibly be where he needs to be for the dictabelt recordings to be anything but meaningless
 
Not required to fix Car 5's location



Yes, it is known.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/reihwlrknf86t1d/JFK-hughes648.png?raw=1[/qimg]
We can see it is turning from Houston into Elm in or about frame H-648 - just after passing the County Records Building (white building in centre frame) and before the Dal-Tex building (red with white fire escapes).



Not required to fix Car 5's location
Not required for timing because the frame rates of the Hughes and Zapruder films are known.



Not required to fix Car 5's location
Not required for timing because the frame rates of the Hughes and Zapruder films are known.



Not required to fix Car 5's location



We have proved it, over and over again. You just stubbornly refuse to accept the obvious because doesn't not fit into your fantasy world... there is simply not enough wiggle room; McLain cannot possibly be where he needs to be for the dictabelt recordings to be anything but meaningless
Lol. I really like that red arrow. Fantastic.

Thank you, you made my day.

You need to pinpoint the exact location at the exact time and the exact speed it moves within the relevant time sequoence. These values are the critical unknowns and therefore subjects of intepretation. Very small differences in these values makes all the difference in the end result. A couple of seconds is enough.

The existing photographic evidence makes for only two possible alternatives:

1. McLain slowed down comming out of the Main/Houston intersection and where in the vicinity of car-10 at the time of the first shot.

2. McLain sped up comming out of said intersection and reached the vicinity of car-6 at the time of the first shot.

Both of these alternatives are possible within known parameters. This is enough to claim that the acoustical evidence remains intact. You have to prove that alt. 2 was impossible.

A red arrow, although hilarious, doesn’t cut it.
 
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Lol. I really like that red arrow. Fantastic.

Thank you, you made my day.

Excellent! The "substance" of your contribution tell us everything we need to know!

You need to pinpoint the axact location at the axact time and the axact speed i moves within the relevant time sequoence. These values are unknown and therefore subjects of intepretation. Very small difference in these values makes all the difference.

Nope, I don't. We are not aiming for micro positioning or millsecond timing here. All we need to do is prove that, the films are synchronised within a few seconds of each other... this is close enough to prove that McLain could not have been where you so desperately want him to be.


The existing photographic evidence makes for only two possible alternatives:

1. McLain slowed down comming out of the Main/Houston intersection and where in the vicinity of car-10 at the time of the first shot.

Prove this is what happened. Show your evidence, cite your sources and explain.

2. McLain sped up comming out of said intersection and reached the vicinity of car-6 at the time of the first shot.

Prove this is what happened. Show your evidence, cite your sources and explain.

Both of these alternatives are possible within known parameters. This is enough to claim that the acoustical evidence remains intact. You have to prove that alt. 2 was impossible.

No, YOU have the burden of proof, and I will not yet you pass it on to me. YOU have to prove that this is what happened. Show your evidence, cite your sources and explain.
 
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You do not know the exact position in Hughes, nor the speed in the relevant timeframe and can therefore not assume what you are trying to prove, that Z-150 is in synch with H-648.

None of that information is needed to determine that the SS vehicle is in the same relative position in both films.

All that is required is a set of working eyes.

The have non-disputed overlapping sequences. Zapruder and Hughes have not. Small difference in percieved position and speed makes all the difference.

OK, what difference do you perceive in position?

I'm asking you for a third time. What is different about the relative positions of the SS follow up car in the 2 films. Describe the differences to me. You disagree that they show the same vehicle in the same relative position, but can't explain why.

The car immediately in front of the SS follow up car has just started its turn from Houston to Elm and is in the middle of the intersection in both clips. The SS follow up car has its wheels turned slightly to the left in both clips. Those are two striking similarities. I'm asking you for the differences.

- Hughes exact position not known.

- Car-5’s position in Hughes not known.

- Average motorcade speed on Houston in the relevant timeframe not known.

- Car-5’s different speeds in relevant timeframe not known.

- Epipolar geometry analysis that are not such.

None of this is remotely necessary to find a common frame between the two films.


There is wiggleroom enough to allow for McLain to reach the spot for the first shot. If you disagree you have to prove it was not.

We have, countless times already.

Your evasion of the simplest of questions shows that you know it to be true. You know as well as we do that the 2 images show the same point in time within a reasonable degree of accuracy, but you'll engage in weasel words and won't answer a simple question about what your eyes can see because you know exactly what I'm going to follow up with, and your whole house of cards will come down.

That's what conspiracy theorists are reduced to. Forcing yourself to doubt your own eyes to protect your chosen conclusion.
 
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The proof is in the acoustical evidence. Show me the proof that refutes the acoustical evidence.
It's not proven, it's the very item under dispute. Claiming that what you need to prove is already proven is a classic example of the logical fallacy of begging the question.
That is exactly why a [sic - I] wrote:
The proof is in the acoustical evidence. Show me the proof that refutes the acoustical evidence.
You missed that?
No, I didn't miss it. Repeating your failed logical fallacy doesn't make it more true. It's still your burden to establish it. Attempting to shift the burden of proof will never get off the ground here, no matter how hard you flap your arms and run into the wind and make propeller sounds with your lips.

And that's why I wrote:
Telling me I need to refute what you just begged the question about is the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof. Two sentences, two logical fallacies. Robert Harris could squeeze three or four logical fallacies in one sentence once he got rolling. You're not even close. You need to up your game if you're going to run with the big dogs.


No, you need to take care of your reading impairment before continuing down your slippery sloap to nothingsness.

No reading impairment here. You're still just begging the question by presuming what you need to prove. Repeating your claims about the HSCA study ad infinitum doesn't make them more true. And issuing ad hominems about my reading ability doesn't improve your logic either.

But you're getting better. You got three logical fallacies in one post:
  • Begging the Question
  • Shifting the Burden of Proof
  • Ad Hominem

Keep working on it. I'm sure you can get into Robert Harris territory if you apply yourself.

Hank
 
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You are absolutely right and I am admitting my sloppy mistake, when writing from memory without checking the details. My bad.

Congratulations. Now address the supposed fraudulent paperwork for the rifle.



1. There is witness testimony (FBI informant) saying that Ruby was talking of the president upcoming motorcade as ”fireworks”.

FALSE. FALSE. FALSE.

There is nothing like you describe. Instead, there is actually a hearsay account (not sworn testimony) by a IRS person who said an IRS (not FBI) informant (and low-level criminal) told him - 14 years after the fact - a story the IRS person did not find credible -- that this criminal and Ruby purportedly watched the assassination from the corner of Houston & Commerce after Ruby purportedly invited him to 'watch the fireworks'. It's a hearsay second-hand account, never verified by the person who supposedly claimed it.

It's pertinent to note the person who purported told this story to the IRS person never showed when asked to repeat the story to investigators.

It's also pertinent to note that you continue to butcher the story you brought up - originally claiming Ruby said this to presumably more credible NEWSMEN (plural) instead of being traceable to one low-level burglar (singular). And even after informed of the true facts, you still butcher it, mutating an IRS informant into an FBI one. And ignoring that at best, this story was first told 14 years after the event, and that the person who heard it found it not credible.

Moreover, even granting for the sake of argument that Ruby actually said it (which is stretching it), 'fireworks' is just an American idiom for any exciting event. So Ruby could have been inviting the man to just watch the motorcade. So you need to not only establish the story told by this low-level criminal is not only true, but that Ruby meant it in a literal sense. And that Ruby meant one firecracker (singular) when he said fireworks (plural). And no one watches a firecracker, for the most part. You watch fireworks, which are different. You hear a firecracker.

Good luck with establishing any of that - let alone all of that.



2. There is witness testimony of seeing Ruby on and around the Houston/Elm in the relevant time frame.

Is there? Sworn testimony or a claim first introduced into the record decades later? Who is this unnamed witness and what did they actually say (quote them). Moreover, bear in mind Ruby was seen at the Dallas Morning News at 12:40 (and he was already there sitting at a desk) when the witness got back from watching the motorcade, and the witness in your claim (1) above puts Ruby at the southwest corner of the Elm / Commmerce intersection, not near the Elm / Houston intersection. There's a long two-block walk Ruby would have to accomplish in there, and then the trip to the Dallas Morning News Ruby has to make to get there by BEFORE 12:40pm. Awaiting your evidence Ruby had time to accomplish all the actions you claim he made in (1) and (2). Go ahead, provide the evidence. Show us your proof.



3. There are multiple witnesses reporting what they at the time thought were fireworks just before they heard what the thought was the first rifle shot.

There are witnesses who claimed they thought the first shot was a firecracker (not fireworks). This doesn't help you any. You're alleging six sounds (one firecracker and five shots). But you're alleging the witnesses heard one firecracker and only two shots. There are only two witnesses - to my recollection - that said there were more than four shots - and that's being generous, as Jean Hill said she heard "from four to six shots" - but wasn't certain of the number.

The witnesses who said the first sound was a firecracker described, for the most part, three loud sounds, one of which they initially mistook for a firecracker, but later realized was a shot. Many of the witnesses belabored under no such misapprehension. For example, law enforcement officer Marrion Baker said he realized immediately the first sound was a rifle shot.

== QUOTE ==
Mr. BELIN - In any event you heard the first shot, or when you heard this noise did you believe it was a shot or did you believe it was something else?
Mr. BAKER - It hit me all at once that it was a rifle shot because I had just got back from deer hunting and I had heard them pop over there for about a week.
Mr. BELIN - What kind of a weapon did it sound like it was coming from?
Mr. BAKER - It sounded to me like it was a high-powered rifle.
Mr. BELIN - All right. When you heard the first shot or the first noise, what did you do and what did you see?
Mr. BAKER - Well, to me, it sounded high and I immediately kind of looked up, and I had a feeling that it came from the building, either right in front of me or of the one across to the right of it.
Mr. BELIN - What would the building right in front of you be?
Mr. BAKER - It would be this Book Depository Building.
== QUOTE ==



4. I’m not claiming that it actually was fireworks, I’m claiming it could be a reasonable probability.

Another far more reasonable probability is that it was a shot, exactly as Marrion Baker described. At that there was a total of three of them, exactly as about 90% of the witnesses who gave a number described.



5. I’m claiming it is a possibility that the conspirators used fireworks in order to confuse and divert the public and that Jack Ruby, in case this happened , would be a prime suspect.

Numerous people here have already pointed out that using a firecracker to signal the start of an assassination attempt makes no sense on a number of levels. There is no evidence of a firecracker, other than that some people described the first sound that way, but again, this is belied by others who suffered from no such confusion.

Hank
 
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