Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories VI: Lyndon Johnson's Revenge

[Axxman300]

No, it does matter. You're conceding as true conspiracy mythology from the conspiracy corner that Manifesto is just repeating here. It's false that Brennan's "description of the rifle man in the window did NOT match Oswald and the clothes did NOT match Oswalds at the time of the shooting."

Totally false. Part of the problem is Manifesto is simply repeating false arguments from conspiracy authors to sell books (and more than likely, he's never researched them to determine whether they are actually true or not). The other part of the problem is lone gunman defenders are too quick to concede those points as not being important. There is no reason to concede them. Ask him to prove his statements. He can't.

Sorry, I missed the updated memo from Langley and the Illuminati telling me which points to debate. Locking down the CIA cover-story for the assassination is hard work.

 

[manifesto]

It didn't prove anything. McLain was not where the researchers wanted him to be to make their science fiction story work.

Prove it.

The dictabelt evidence has a problematic chain of evidence, and by your standards should be inadmissible.

So, why is ”chain of evidence” important in this case. Is it a fabrication? How could that be?

Tell me.

 

[traxy]

Prove it.

We have, repeatedly.

You have visual evidence that McLain was 174 feet away from the initial mic spot with roughly 1.5 seconds to make up the distance (and that's using your own generous timing for the first shot, when in fact it is likely less).

Thats it. That's the game. If he can't REALISTICALLY make up that distance in the amount of time he had, there isn't anything further to discuss.


McLain and Courson are both in complete agreement that the motorcade stopped on Houston between Main and Elm Streets.

When it comes to the dictabelt evidence, there is literally nothing left to prove.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Prove it.


So, why is ”chain of evidence” important in this case. Is it a fabrication? How could that be?

Tell me.

Repeat back what you've been told already. Be specific.

 

[Axxman300]

You use the highlighted word a lot. I honestly believe you don't know what it means.

None of your allegations are proven. You don't have the evidence to prove them. You would know this if you read the actual testimony instead of getting your arguments from conspiracy sites. Or if you read this thread, which has seen these same arguments offered by other CTs in the past, and shown exactly how and why the CT claims are false.

You're not special. You're just echoing the same arguments all CTs argue, and without doing any independent research to verify whether those claims are true.

Hank

This is why he's hilarious.

His arguments are pedestrian, as if he has Jim Mars' book next to his laptop. He has shown no understanding of history, no understanding of ballistics, no understanding of the differing standards of investigation by the DPD, FBI, Secret Service, and Warren Commission. He has bought into the Kabuki Theater of the multiple gunman story without asking basic questions. Any evidence collected by law enforcement is a fabrication while at the same time any story of conspiracy is automatically accepted as truth no matter how questionable the source is.

His over-estimation of the CIA's abilities is embarrassing. It allows him to play the Don Quixote-card where he believes he's doing battle against the monsters at Langley to reveal the truth, which is all too common with this CT (the other bogey man being the Mafia). His problem is not knowing how CIA functions on a day-to-day basis on any level. The complexity of launching an operation, the paperwork involved even if it's all fabricated to hide the truth, is considerable, and there were, and are a painful number of meetings where private notes are taken. Even when an order is given to destroy all documents and materials most CIA officers can never be 100% everything is gone.

Next, you'd have to look at the people CIA was working with in the South East US during JFK's operations to kill Castro. Those men and women ran the spectrum from tier-one spies to "God What Were They Thinking?". We knew a lot about Mongoose well before the first documents were released thanks to the 10% crew and their big mouths. To carry out the assassination as Manifesto alleges would involve around 1,500 people dedicated to this single task, and many continuing to work on it for a decade. That means travel vouchers, and paystubs that are all sitting on microfilm somewhere in storage. Many of those 1,500 would have necessitated regional hire, and there would be a record of a pay-out (good luck finding it, but it would be there).

The key thing to keep in mind is that if it was true, the CIA would never have worked with Lee Oswald nor Jack Ruby, even if it was only to set them up. Ruby had a big mouth, and Oswald was unpredictable.

Edited by Agatha: 

Do not alter usernames in order to insult.

 

[manifesto]

I've seen the point made in several places, and I agree with it, that most mass shooters of today would fit right in with Lee Oswald, Mark Chapman, James Earl Ray and Sirhan Sirhan. Marginalized people looking to make a mark on the world and be famous without really caring why.

These four are all manufactured patsies, yes. Who have the power to do such a thing with impunity?

You tell me?

 

[manifesto]

My apologizes, as I haven't followed the thread for a couple of days. The way I read this even if Courson is the cop stopped to watch Jackie climb on the Lincoln at the intersection then he is at/near position one in the array not the last position that the open mikes needs to be located. So it does not matter, the open mike is not in position.

No.

- IF the cop is Courson then he is exactly where he testified to be at the time he says he saw Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk, at the Houston/Elm intersection.

- IF the cop is Courson then McLain is exactly were the acoustical evidence positions him, further down Elm Street.

- IF the cop is McLain he can’t be the cop on the bike with the mike which thereby refutes the acoustical evidence. End of story.

- IF the cop is McLain he is lying when saying he stopped half way on Houston looking through the park seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.

- IF the cop is McLain, Courson is mistaken when saying he saw Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.


So far, no one has produced any evidence of McLain being the cop in the Dorman film. Until anyone proves that he was, the acoustical evidence prevails.

 

[manifesto]

It's not proven, it's the very item under dispute. Claiming that what you need to prove is already proven is a classic example of the logical fallacy of begging the question.

That is exactly why a wrote:

The proof is in the acoustical evidence. Show me the proof that refutes the acoustical evidence.

You missed that?

Telling me I need to refute what you just begged the question about is the logical fallacy of shifting the burden of proof.

Two sentences, two logical fallacies.

Robert Harris could squeeze three or four logical fallacies in one sentence once he got rolling. You're not even close. You need to up your game if you're going to run with the big dogs.

Hank

No, you need to take care of your reading impairment before continuing down your slippery sloap to nothingsness.

 

[manifesto]

Then prove it.

I’m doing it, waiting for any of you to refute the acoustical evidence showing five shots on the DPD dictabelt = at least two to three shooters = conspiracy.

We've been waiting.

We? The Mighty Church of the Lone Nut?

Repent.

 

[bknight]

No.

- IF the cop is Courson then he is exactly where he testified to be at the time he says he saw Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk, at the Houston/Elm intersection.

- IF the cop is Courson then McLain is exactly were the acoustical evidence positions him, further down Elm Street.

- IF the cop is McLain he can’t be the cop on the bike with the mike which thereby refutes the acoustical evidence. End of story.

- IF the cop is McLain he is lying when saying he stopped half way on Houston looking through the park seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.

- IF the cop is McLain, Courson is mistaken when saying he saw Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.


So far, no one has produced any evidence of McLain being the cop in the Dorman film. Until anyone proves that he was, the acoustical evidence prevails.

No that's not what the acoustic array indicates to all. The last post, the one where all the alleged gunfire is heard, was further down Elm not any where close to the corner. None of the MC officers were there except those around the Executive limo.

 

[RoboTimbo]

I’m doing it, waiting for any of you to refute the acoustical evidence showing five shots on the DPD dictabelt = at least two to three shooters = conspiracy.

We? The Mighty Church of the Lone Nut?

Repent.

Waiting for you to show the dictabelt recording refutes the Warren Commission findings. The ball is in your court.

 

[manifesto]

I found the passage from Larry Sneed. It doesn't contradict his House testimony at all, and in fact makes it even more impossible for him to have gotten to the spot he needed to be at!

He also says the Book Depository building was straight in front of him, which puts him still on Houston street after the headshot. He needed to be halfway down Elm. Street at that point for your timing to be even close to working.

He says he saw the aftermath of the shooting (Jackie on the trunk of the limo) while STOPPED on Houston halfway between Main and Elm.

"When I made the turn onto Houston on the left side, we had caught up with the cars in front of us, and I had stopped right by the side of the entrance to the old jail, which is about midway between Main and Elm Streets on Houston. I heard one very clear shot. Evidently I must have felt like it was coming from straight ahead because at that instant I was looking down, and when I heard the shot, threw my head up and it appeared that about 5,000 pigeons flew out from behind that building (the Texas School Book Depository) straight ahead. In fact, I thought to myself, "Somebody's shooting at the pigeons!" But I could see the limousine off to my left on Elm and saw Mrs. Kennedy crawling on the back of the car. I had a good idea that somebody had been shot at but didn't know which one."

Sorry man, McLain’s testimony here is just as damaging to your case as his house testimony was.

What? IF McLain is the Dorman cop he can’t be standing still further down in the middle of Houston Street looking through the park seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk. Agree?

IF he is NOT the Dorman cop he had to be where the acoustical evidence shows him to be, further down the Elm Street after passing the last spot for picking up the last shot.

No matter which alternative are correct, McLain is lying when saying he stopped his bike halfway through Houston seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.

Courson on the other hand is where he says he was when seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the trunk, arriving at the Houston/Elm intersection exactly where the Dorman cop is positioned at that time in the timeline.

Who do you trust? Courson or McLain?

 

[Axxman300]

So far, no one has produced any evidence of McLain being the cop in the Dorman film. Until anyone proves that he was, the acoustical evidence prevails.

We have shown you photographs, video, and the motorcade diagram showing exactly where McLain was while the shots were fired.

 

[manifesto]

https://muse.jhu.edu/chapter/743253

Here's Courson's testimony from that same book...and yeah, it straight up decimates you too.

You're not very good at this man, hate to break it to you.

"All was going well until we had just made a right tum from Main onto Houston Street due to the limousine having to make the sharp left tum up ahead on Elm which slowed the motorcade. We had to stop, thus I was sitting on my motorcycle in the left lane on Houston looking more or less at the Book Depository. That's when I heard the shots! I couldn't tell exactly from where the shots came because of the echo pattern, but there were three very distinct shots. The first two were fairly close together then there was more space between the second and third."

Human perception is not exact at all times. Another MC cop, Marion Baker, didn’t hear any shots at all. He saw the pigeons flying up from the TSBD and desided to search the building beacause of this.

Courson was behind McLain for the whole motorcade.

Yes.

He was probably stopped closer to the crosswalk while McLain was stopped halfway down Elm or so, maybe a hundred feet apart.

Stopped by whom?

Now we have not one, but two Dallas PD motorcycle officers stating that the motorcade came to a STOP on Houston street, and that it was stopped when the shooting happened. How did McLain make it halfway down Elm to be there for the headshot when he was STOPPED on Houston?

Stopped by whom?

 

[Axxman300]

These four are all manufactured patsies, yes. Who have the power to do such a thing with impunity?

You tell me?

Nobody.

 

[traxy]

- IF the cop is Courson then he is exactly where he testified to be at the time he says he saw Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk, at the Houston/Elm intersection.

Courson never said that.

- IF the cop is McLain he can’t be the cop on the bike with the mike which thereby refutes the acoustical evidence. End of story.

Correct.

- IF the cop is McLain, Courson is mistaken when saying he saw Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.

Courson didn't say that.

So far, no one has produced any evidence of McLain being the cop in the Dorman film. Until anyone proves that he was, the acoustical evidence prevails.

That's not the way it works.

We know exactly where McLain was prior to the shooting. He was at the crosswalk at Main and Houston with less than 1.5 seconds until the shooting started. Since there is no earthly way for him to make up that distance in that amount of time, the acoustic evidence does not prevail. It is debunked.

The Dorman officer is just the cherry on the sundae. A cop in the exact same spot as McLain was during the entire length of the motorcade with the same notepad clipped to his windshield.

 

[traxy]

Stopped by whom?

Stopped by the flow of the motorcade.

Camera car 1 is ahead of McLain at frame Z150 after just rounding the corner from Main to Houston. That same car has not yet turned the corner onto Elm by Z365, a full 11.7 seconds later.

 

[traxy]

Human perception is not exact at all times. Another MC cop, Marion Baker, didn’t hear any shots at all. He saw the pigeons flying up from the TSBD and desided to search the building beacause of this.

For chrissakes man, is there any simple detail you can't screw up???

Good god.

Baker's affidavit from 11/22/63:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/baker_m3.htm

"Friday November 22, 1963 I was riding motorcycle escort for the President of the United States. At approximately 12:30 pm I was on Houston Street and the President's car had made a left turn from Houston onto Elm Street. Just as I approached Elm Street and Houston I heard three shots."

Need more? How about Baker's Warren Commission testimony?

"Now, tell us what happened after you turned on to Houston Street?
Mr. BAKER - AS I got myself straightened up there, I guess it took me some 20, 30 feet, something like that, and it was about that time that I heard these shots come out.
Mr. BELIN - All right.
Could you just tell us what you heard and what you saw and what you did?
Mr. BAKER - As I got, like I say as I got straightened up there, I was, I don't know when these shots started coming off, I just--it seemed to me like they were high, and I just happened to look right straight up---"

Now, are you LYING, or are you simply that ill-informed? It's one or the other.

 

[bknight]

What? IF McLain is the Dorman cop he can’t be standing still further down in the middle of Houston Street looking through the park seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk. Agree?

IF he is NOT the Dorman cop he had to be where the acoustical evidence shows him to be, further down the Elm Street after passing the last spot for picking up the last shot.

No matter which alternative are correct, McLain is lying when saying he stopped his bike halfway through Houston seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk.

Courson on the other hand is where he says he was when seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the trunk, arriving at the Houston/Elm intersection exactly where the Dorman cop is positioned at that time in the timeline.

Who do you trust? Courson or McLain?

How about both and neither is in position of the acoustic array to verify the theory.

 

[manifesto]

What was the loud noise?

No one knows. Firecracker? Pistol shot? Back fire? Shot with a silencer?

It was not as loud as any of the five proven rifle shots, that is for certain. But it was loud.

Surely you're not going to suggest a firecracker was thrown less than a second before an assassin opened fire on the president.

It wouldn’t be the first time someone used a diversionary maneauver in order to create confusion, would it?

Connally says it was gunfire.

Does he now?

Why do any of those points matter in the least?

Because they are critical for Myers ”epipolar geometrical analyzes” (which it is not) to work as he claims.

McLain says he didn't make it past halfway down Houston before the shooting was over. Both him and Courson agree that the motorcade stopped after the turn from main to Houston.

IF McLain is telling the truth (which he can’t possibly do), McLain is NOT the Dorman cop and if NOT the Dorman cop, Courson has to be that cop. IF Courson is the Dorman cop, McLain has to be where the acoustical evidence need him to be, on Elm Street beyond the spot where his mike picked up the sound from the last shot.

So, are you insisting on McLain stopping halfway on Houston looking down the park seeing Mrs. Kennedy on the limo trunk?

He was 174 feet away from the first microphone spot and had between 0.546 and 1.36 seconds to get there, necessitating an average speed between 85 and 189mph over that stretch, which in layman's terms means it didn't happen.

Prove that he had only between 0.546 to 1.36 seconds to reach the spot for picking up the first shot.

- When was the first shot?

- Where was Hughes exact position when filming McLain turning up on Houston?

- What was the average speed of the motorcade on Houston?

- How did the motorcade on Houston move? Like coaches in a train or in an accordion fashion?


You have to prove the exact numerical values on these instances in order to prove that McLain couldn’t possibly have reached the right spot at the right time. Depending on where you put these values the critical time needed fluctuates between half a second up to six seconds or more.

Did McLain stay put far behind in the vicinity of car-10 or was he where the acoustical avidence positions him at the first shot, in the vicinity of car-6?

There is no in between. 10 or 6 is the only possible alternatives given from the existing photographical record.

You have to prove he was at car-10 if you insist on refuting the acoustical evidence of five rifle shots recorded at the DPD dictabelt.