Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[Meadmaker]

And this requires you to assign men and women specific traits. I do not do this.

You assign certain "mindsets" and "behaviors" to the genders. I do not.

But there are correlations between behavior and gender. I do not believe those correlations are imposed by society. The danger is that we treat those as definitive, instead of just correlational. If a person engages in a behavior that tends to be associated with one gender, that doesn't make the person "less of a man/woman".

 

[Meadmaker]

What I don't do is inquire about genitals. Neither, I'm guessing, do you.

I can't imagine every inquiring about genitals, but if I happen to be in a situation where genitals are displayed, I'm going to assume that the person attached to those genitals is of the gender most commonly associated with that sort of genitals.


Well, really, I'm not going to "assume" anything. It's a definitional thing.

 

[JoeMorgue]

But there are correlations between behavior and gender. I do not believe those correlations are imposed by society. The danger is that we treat those as definitive, instead of just correlational. If a person engages in a behavior that tends to be associated with one gender, that doesn't make the person "less of a man/woman".

But it does make a transperson more or less of a man or woman.

We can't have this both ways.

 

[kellyb]

But there are correlations between behavior and gender. I do not believe those correlations are imposed by society.

You don't think any of them are strictly societal?
I think some are strictly societal, some are probably not.

 

[d4m10n]

A thought experiment.

After dining at an ordinary chain restaurant, someone who looks and dresses very much like a woman walks into the men's room, picks a stall, and takes a leak. She then washes her hands and leaves. Upon leaving, she is confronted by a self-righteous person who informs her that it is wrong for her to use the facilities designated specifically for males, and who (to your surprise) presents the most persuasive argument you can think of in support of that position.

What would that argument be?

 

[kellyb]

After dining at an ordinary chain restaurant, someone who looks and dresses very much like a woman walks into the men's room, picks a stall, and takes a leak. She then washes her hands and leaves. Upon leaving, she is confronted by a self-righteous person who informs her that it is wrong for her to use the facilities designated specifically for males, and who (to your surprise) presents the most persuasive argument you can think of in support of that position.

What would that argument be?

I'm totally drawing a blank.

 

[cullennz]

After dining at an ordinary chain restaurant, someone who looks and dresses very much like a woman walks into the men's room, picks a stall, and takes a leak. She then washes her hands and leaves. Upon leaving, she is confronted by a self-righteous person who informs her that it is wrong for her to use the facilities designated specifically for males, and who (to your surprise) presents the most persuasive argument you can think of in support of that position.

What would that argument be?

From my experience dudes wouldn't really care.

I know I wouldnt/haven't

 

[cullennz]

Should add barring the obvious situation of unless there a six blokes waiting and she barges in front of them

 

[Meadmaker]

You don't think any of them are strictly societal?
I think some are strictly societal, some are probably not.

I misspoke. You are correct. I meant to say that not all of those correlated behaviors are imposed by society.

 

[Meadmaker]

But it does make a transperson more or less of a man or woman.

We can't have this both ways.

I think I understand what you are saying.

In general, I think your posts expressing this theme are spot on. It seems as if cis-folks are supposed to act as if gender is pretty much meaningless. Arbitrary. Just a social construct.....except in the case of trans-people, for whom it is incredibly important.

 

[d4m10n]

I'm totally drawing a blank.

Me too, but then I'm not arguing for the inviolability of segregated bathrooms.

 

[kellyb]

Me too, but then I'm not arguing for the inviolability of segregated bathrooms.

I don't think anyone in the thread is?

 

[d4m10n]

I don't think anyone in the thread is?

If we all thought restrooms should be liberated from socially imposed binaries, why on God's green Earth does the subject keep coming up in a thread about gender?

 

[cullennz]

If we all thought restrooms should be liberated from socially imposed binaries, why on God's green Earth does the subject keep coming up in a thread about gender?

Restrooms are seperated by sex, not gender

 

[JoeMorgue]

I think I understand what you are saying.

In general, I think your posts expressing this theme are spot on. It seems as if cis-folks are supposed to act as if gender is pretty much meaningless. Arbitrary. Just a social construct.....except in the case of trans-people, for whom it is incredibly important.

Bingo.

 

[Meadmaker]

If we all thought restrooms should be liberated from socially imposed binaries, why on God's green Earth does the subject keep coming up in a thread about gender?

I, for one, think that restrooms should be liberated from socially imposed binaries.

But the distinction between male and female is not socially imposed.


I really don't care if a woman uses the men's room, and whether that woman identifies as a man, woman, or sheep. I am somewhat more concerned about men using the women's room, but when it comes to transgirls, well, keep everything to yourself ladies, and don't let them see the parts that don't conform to expectations.

Where I decided that society had gone too far on trans rights was when there were situations where there were men, women, and "unisex" or "family" bathrooms, and the trans people said they couldn't possibly use those, because it would hurt their feelings or something if they weren't treated like all the other girls. And even then, ok, everyone has to pee so....whatever....and....I guess......but then they insist the same goes for locker rooms, where people really do get naked on a pretty regular basis, and somehow it makes sense to some people that some person who is perfectly capable of siring children ought to be getting naked around high school girls. At that point I decided we had gone too far.

 

[theprestige]

I, for one, think that restrooms should be liberated from socially imposed binaries.

Personal prejudice noted. But what the **** does it actually mean?

What problem are you trying to solve?

How will you measure if you're solving it?

What will you do if your measure contradicts your prediction?

What policy will you propose if your prediction fails?

 

[kellyb]

If we all thought restrooms should be liberated from socially imposed binaries, why on God's green Earth does the subject keep coming up in a thread about gender?

People are talking about sports, prisons, and locker rooms when it comes to trans-inclusiveness at this point more than bathrooms, I think.

 

[mumblethrax]

So a man with depression is less of a man? A woman without depression is less of a woman? Of course not that's silly.

Yes, it is. But then I didn't say that.

Again unless the factor makes a cis-person more or less of their gender it can't make a trans-person more or less of the opposite gender.

That's just not true. Identity conveys history, and history isn't symmetrical. I certainly think someone who has a uterus is most likely to think of herself as a woman, but a woman who has had a hysterectomy is no less a woman. The guy who gets his tackle blown off in a warzone is still a man, even if he foregoes prosthesis, whatever the officious dick-spotters think.

 

[d4m10n]

People are talking about sports, prisons, and locker rooms when it comes to trans-inclusiveness at this point more than bathrooms, I think.

This is a quantitative claim (capable of demonstration) but I remain skeptical.