d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
Who determines the number of genders- and how?
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Marcus
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In all circumstances, it's more of a general observation.
I'm told that I should refer to all transwomen as women, even those that haven't had the surgery or the hormones, out of respect for their feelings. No one seems to worry about the feelings of biological women in general who are supposed to be analogous to a person with a penis.
I know this is not a popular opinion, I've expressed it before ( I think on this thread) but to me a dude in a dress is not in the same category as a woman.
I'm actually sort of glad Target got mentioned, because it provides the perfect example of the "Damned if you do, Damned if you don't" situation we've been put in.
For anyone outside the States about a year or two back Target, a popular chain of American big box general retail stores, made the news with the decision to de-gender their toy sections, no long specifically refer to "Boys" or "Girls" toys in ads or shelf space.
They also, round about the same time IIRC, gained some controversy over implemented a store policy allowing transgender people to use the bathroom of their choosing.
See what I mean? Doesn't this strike anyone else as two exactly opposite and contradictory solutions... to the exact same problem?
Why is the "solution" for one "We got rid of the gender roles" and "We're keeping the gender roles but letting you choose which one you use" for the other when that... negates the other problem?
There was never a law or a store policy forbidding a girl from buying a G.I. Joe or a boy from buying a Barbie, it was already as "gender neutral" as the bathrooms are now after the updated to a more gender neutral policy.
So we have this weird scenario where the fix for one problem is the problem in another scenario which the exact same variables. It's madness.
Why is it different? Why is "remove the gendering" the solution to one problem but "keep the gendering but let people pick their own side" the solution to the other?
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Progressive discussions always seem to operate under the assumption that everybody's holding a copy of the same complicated nested and ranked "who's a victim to who" flowchart that somebody drew up at some point and forget to distribute.
mumblethrax
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Women are generally more prone to depression than men. I don't think this is because society expects them to be depressed.
Demographic bell curving doesn't count.
Women tend to be shorter than men. Does that make a short man more feminine than a tall one or a tall woman more masculine than a short one?
So a man with depression is less of a man? A woman without depression is less of a woman? Of course not that's silly.
Again unless the factor makes a cis-person more or less of their gender it can't make a trans-person more or less of the opposite gender.
mumblethrax
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Because bathrooms implicate privacy in a way that toy aisles do not. Even in countries with unisex bathrooms and locker rooms, they tend to be constructed differently. That suggests a retrofit for older facilities, and therefore a cost, while de-gendering a toy aisle is more or less free.
I mean, I think we should be moving past these Victorian ideas about gender segregation, but I'm not naive enough that I think that will be anything short of a process.
d4m10n
Penultimate Amazing
That strikes me as a statistical disparity between the two sexes, rather than a distinction between what it is taken to mean to be feminine as opposed to masculine.
ETA: Society does expect women to be more in touch with and forthright about their feelings, though. [emoji58]
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kellyb
Penultimate Amazing
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Surely you can come up with something better than "womanly depression" for an aspect of gender that excludes gender roles.
The depression thing would be a matter of sex, not gender, anyway.
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sadhatter
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How about you state your criteria, then people can give examples. What you appear to be doing is keeping what would fit your criteria under wraps to shoot down any suggestions without being able to be called out on moving the goal posts.
We're saying the extra criteria don't exist (in the context being used.) How exactly are we supposed to provide criteria we don't think exists?
We're not calling out moving the goalpost, we're saying they don't exist.
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We've been stuck in this loop for 20 pages now.
"What makes the difference between a man and a man who identifies as a woman?"
"Factor X"
"So a woman has to have Factor X"
"No."
"So how can it be a female factor in pertaining to men who identify as women, but not a female factor in the concept of 'woman' at all?"
"It's complicated."
You cannot have criteria that only exist when they are being subverted. No amount of "Well it's complicated" will make that not true.
If you say a man with X criteria is a woman, than you are saying a woman has to have X criteria. No amount of if, and, or buts will make that not true.
Words mean things.
We are really, really starting to get a firm foot into "Will you just shut up and let me be special and unique already?" territory here.
"What makes the difference between a man and a man who identifies as a woman?"
"Factor X"
"So a woman has to have Factor X"
"No."
"So how can it be a female factor in pertaining to men who identify as women, but not a female factor in the concept of 'woman' at all?"
"It's complicated."
You cannot have criteria that only exist when they are being subverted. No amount of "Well it's complicated" will make that not true.
If you say a man with X criteria is a woman, than you are saying a woman has to have X criteria. No amount of if, and, or buts will make that not true.
Words mean things.
We are really, really starting to get a firm foot into "Will you just shut up and let me be special and unique already?" territory here.
Delphic Oracle
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I am male, penis and all.
I feel a great deal more feminine in mindset and behaviors than most of my fellow males.
There is no medical occurrence causing this.
I am not attempting to subvert societal conventions.
Why are your only two guesses that the person is sick/ill/unwell or intentionally defiant?
This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
lomiller
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To what end? In what situations do you really need to know the person’s gender? If gender is really something different than biological sex are there any cases at all where it matters?
I don’t particular want to have to enquire about genitals or if someone has a Y chromosome, but it’s certainty something that in at least some situations does matter. If you can’t tell by how someone presents themselves then asking may be the only viable option.
Delphic Oracle
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In testament to how subjective these distinctions and proscriptions are, those colors we all insist on...were completely opposite.
"Red" for boys, blue for girls (yes, they were the pastels we all know and love). That was until the very early 20th century.
Nearly everyone you ask now will insist that our way is "natural" or "just makes sense" and besides "that's the way it's always been."
This is where the tapatalk signature that annoys people used to be
lomiller
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Is the lack of enforced social roles really the same thing as “barely any gender differentiation”?
I’m willing to guess that societies that allowed men or women in any social role still cared about gender when it came to who they chose for sex partners. I’m also willing to guess that they frowned on someone in one social role insisting on dressing for another.
This I think I can agree with somewhat. We are (hopefully) near the tail end of a transition from a society with gender specific social roles to one without such gender specific roles. We still have perceptual baggage about how women and men should dress and act.
This does mean that these become interchangeable in all situations. We still need to find sex partners, husbands and wives. We still need to create safe environments for women to change, shower, go to the bathroom etc. We still need to give women the opportunity to participate in sports without the disadvantages of trying to compete against someone with a Y chromosome, etc. As matter of simple convenience we are likely always going to have difference3s in dress and/or comportment where these come into play.
Note that these are (as far as I can see) rooted in biological sex not “gender identity”.
kellyb
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So, how does "feminine in mindset" play out for you? What does "feminine" mean in this context?
kellyb
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See, I see those things as lies. Urban legends, basically. Useless if not harmful ones at that.
And this requires you to assign men and women specific traits. I do not do this.
You assign certain "mindsets" and "behaviors" to the genders. I do not.
kellyb
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I can kind of see behaviors with just a couple of things. Boys' preference to play with cars seems to start in mid-infancy, regardless of exposure to various types of toys, for examples. I wouldn't be surprised if there was some obscure evolutionary root to the "men tend to like cars" thing.
"Interests" are not "mindsets", tho, even though they're both cognitive things.