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Who determines the number of genders- and how?

That's the same Paul McHugh who calls homosexuality an "erroneous desire".

Have you looked at any of the science that doesn't support your position?
 
I didn't know that. I'm also behind the paywall and only read some extracts. But that's the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.
 
I didn't know that. I'm also behind the paywall and only read some extracts. But that's the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.

Argumentum ad hominem is an informal fallacy, pointing out that it is wrong to say that an argument is NECESSARILY incorrect because of the identity of the person making it.

Mumblethrax made no such assertion.

It is absolutely reasonable that something like an op-ed, often will have framing, spin and bias based on the beliefs of the writer. They should all be taken with a grain of salt, and the size of that grain should generally increase if the writer is known to have particular biases.

It is not fallacious to take the identity of a claimant into consideration when assessing the likelihood that facts are represented accurately and interpreted reasonably. If a homeless person with tinfoil on their head rushes up to you and screams that a nuclear bomb is on the way, you don't give it the same credence you might if the same message were on the front page of a credible newspaper.
 
While I disagree with how Rolfe is conceptualizing some parts of his argument, I think a blanket accusation of transphobia are unwarranted.

In the broad strokes he seems to be arguing the same thing I am, albeit with a little more of the piss and vinagear then I would chose to flavor my dish.

To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.

Yes there is plenty of hatred for transgender people coming from a lot of bad places. But that doesn't mean every person who disagrees with how you want to address that problem or brings up any ancillary points is evil.

Again progressives if you could stop framing anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% across the board in goal, tone, method, motivation, priority, and all possible contexts as a bigot, this conversation would go a lot better.
 
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I didn't know that. I'm also behind the paywall and only read some extracts. But that's the very definition of argumentum ad hominem.
Ad hominems are often a useful heuristic. I'm not going to pay Rupert Murdoch to read the non-scientific musings of a crusty old homo-/transphobe.

The other part of my statement was intended to hint that you are cherry-picking opinions well outside of the scientific consensus in order to justify a transphobic position, the same tactic used by climate change "skeptics".
 
To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.
I don't think it does. It just requires us to reject the idea that gender is completely malleable. That is, we should be tendentialists rather than essentialists or...I dunno, plasticitists? We should recognize that there are tendencies (and differing distributions) for men and women (even if we aren't sure what those tendencies are), while striving to prevent those recognized tendencies from ossifying into stereotypes.

"Gender is socially constructed" isn't the new guard in sexology, it's the old, the one that prevailed from the late 60s until the 90s, largely as a result of the David Reimer case you mentioned earlier.
 
I don't think it does. It just requires us to reject the idea that gender is completely malleable. That is, we should be tendentialists rather than essentialists or...I dunno, plasticitists? We should recognize that there are tendencies (and differing distributions) for men and women (even if we aren't sure what those tendencies are), while striving to prevent those recognized tendencies from ossifying into stereotypes.

I just don't see this as a stable framework and honestly seems more and more like "Only gender roles I find useful (either directly thought my own use of them or indirectly via my desire to subvert them) exist."

Like at some point we stopped trying to get rid of gender roles and just all broke off into fiefdoms trying to use them in the way most advantages.

Again I still never got an answer to, what for me, this whole thing hinges on.

Ted is a biological male, penis, produces sperm, XX Chromosome... you get the picture.

Ted tells me he "identifies as a woman."

What am I supposed to do, think, conceptualize, say, and in what way am I to treat Ted differently with that new information.

What changed? If I have to apply any criteria to Ted now that I didn't before he told me he identifies as a woman that criteria is, by definition, a legit, concrete difference between men and women that can be brought up in other contexts with the exact same level appropriateness.

Ted says that him identifying as a woman means X. Put anything in X you want. If I have to accept that as valid I then get to turn around to Sue and apply X to her or this whole thing collapses as a nonsensical shell game of distinctions without difference.
 
I just don't see this as a stable framework and honestly seems more and more like "Only gender roles I find useful (either directly thought my own use of them or indirectly via my desire to subvert them) exist."

Like at some point we stopped trying to get rid of gender roles and just all broke off into fiefdoms trying to use them in the way most advantages.

Again I still never got an answer to, what for me, this whole thing hinges on.

Ted is a biological male, penis, produces sperm, XX Chromosome... you get the picture.

Ted tells me he "identifies as a woman."

XX males are sterile though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XX_male_syndrome
 
While I disagree with how Rolfe is conceptualizing some parts of his argument, I think a blanket accusation of transphobia are unwarranted.

In the broad strokes he seems to be arguing the same thing I am, albeit with a little more of the piss and vinagear then I would chose to flavor my dish.

To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.
Yes there is plenty of hatred for transgender people coming from a lot of bad places. But that doesn't mean every person who disagrees with how you want to address that problem or brings up any ancillary points is evil.

Again progressives if you could stop framing anyone who doesn't agree with you 100% across the board in goal, tone, method, motivation, priority, and all possible contexts as a bigot, this conversation would go a lot better.

Wait why is this a problem? I don't understand.
 
To support Transgenderism as a concept requires us to maintain or even bring back outmoded gender stereotypes and... that's a problem.

Wait why is this a problem? I don't understand.

Because those outmoded gender roles are arbitrary and bad.

Not only is this something I personally consider true but that was long the Progressive party line, one of those things we had to agree was true without question lest we be branded bigots.

And now I've got to abandon that and embrace them again just so a certain subcategory of people can subvert them.. or again I'm a bigot.
 
I just don't see this as a stable framework and honestly seems more and more like "Only gender roles I find useful (either directly thought my own use of them or indirectly via my desire to subvert them) exist."

Like at some point we stopped trying to get rid of gender roles and just all broke off into fiefdoms trying to use them in the way most advantages.
It's certainly less rigid than the other choices, but I see that as a good thing. That's the way the critical thinker should see any topic--non-dogmatically.

I don't see what's unsustainable about this idea. We should recognize that there are differences, even if only statistical differences, between men and women. We should also recognize that we aren't always sure how these differences arise.

None of that implies "I get to arbitrarily pick and choose which aspects of gender apply in any given situation". It means we have the same obligations we always have--to be thoughtful and careful.

Ted is a biological male, penis, produces sperm, XX Chromosome... you get the picture.
I'm assuming you mean XY....

What am I supposed to do, think, conceptualize, say, and in what way am I to treat Ted differently with that new information.
If you have different conceptual categories for men and women, Ted is asking to be thought of as a woman, rather than a man.

If you don't, congrats on being super-enlightened. All you need to do is use a different set of pronouns (in English, anyway).

Personally, the first time I met a transwoman, I discovered I had a whole slew of unspoken gender assumptions. And then again the first time I met a transman.

Ted says that him identifying as a woman means X. Put anything in X you want. If I have to accept that as valid I then get to turn around to Sue and apply X to her or this whole thing collapses as a nonsensical shell game of distinctions without difference.
I don't think this follows.

If Pierre says he's French, he's not asking you to apply your stereotypes about the French. He's just giving you some information about the circumstances of his birth and life, which which you can make some guesses about Pierre. "He speaks French" might be a good one, but it's not guaranteed to be correct.

If it turns out he doesn't speak French, that doesn't mean you should treat Marie-Claude, also from France, as if she doesn't.

That's just the nature of complex identities. And I don't think this means the whole thing collapses because sometimes our best guesses turn out to be incorrect.
 
Because those outmoded gender roles are arbitrary and bad.

Not only is this something I personally consider true but that was long the Progressive party line, one of those things we had to agree was true without question lest we be branded bigots.

And now I've got to abandon that and embrace them again just so a certain subcategory of people can subvert them.. or again I'm a bigot.

Gender roles aren't wholly arbitrary (they have considerable evolutionary history) even if they do have arbitrary components. They're also not "bad". Forcing people into specific roles is arguably bad (I'd say we should push as little as possible in any direction except "be happy and be successful in some domain") but I don't think aggregate gender roles are a bad thing. They're also not even outmoded, really.
 
Well, you know, I knew that Johns Hopkins was the first centre (in the USA at least) to offer sex reassignment surgery, and that they stopped doing it some time ago because follow-up studies on patient mental health persuaded them that the benefits were not sufficient to justify continuing with such invasive surgery including the amputation of healthy body parts. That was just one article that referred to that.

So, did it happen? Did Johns Hopkins decide to opt out of the lucrative SRS bandwagon because they felt it wasn't benefiting the patients? I understand this is the case. I suppose someone is now going to find some reason to claim that this was entirely due to bigotry, hatred and transphobia? Feel free.
 
So, did it happen? Did Johns Hopkins decide to opt out of the lucrative SRS bandwagon because they felt it wasn't benefiting the patients? I understand this is the case. I suppose someone is now going to find some reason to claim that this was entirely due to bigotry, hatred and transphobia? Feel free.
First let me laugh at "lucrative SRS bandwagon", and then let me confirm that they did opt out of performing that operation...before opting back in.

And I won't argue that this was entirely due to that decision falling to a crusty old homo-/transphobe, but, y'know, I think it's a factor.
 
I don't see what's unsustainable about this idea. We should recognize that there are differences, even if only statistical differences, between men and women. We should also recognize that we aren't always sure how these differences arise.

Fine, that's all fine. But again this can't turn into "I get to use or not use gender roles as I see fit and pretend they don't exist

More and more it really does seem like genders roles now belong solely to transgenders subvert* which is... not gonna work.

*Okay in fairness I've been using the word "subvert" here to describe this but I do realize that has more negative connotations then I should probably be using. I am not trying to paint transgenders as simply rebelling or reflexively going against the grain.

But more overall point, that it seems gender roles are only brought up in this context of a transgender person going "against" (there really is no purely neutral term, sorry) the established gender roles.

Again we can't keep outmoded ideas around just because we're so proud of the people going against them.


If you have different conceptual categories for men and women, Ted is asking to be thought of as a woman, rather than a man.

If you don't, congrats on being super-enlightened. All you need to do is use a different set of pronouns (in English, anyway).

1. That's not how language works.

2. No this is about more than pronouns. Come on let's be somewhat reasonable here. Social movements don't rise around pronouns.

3. It seems more and more that treating transgenderism as a... temporary solution, something we're putting into place only until we rich some level of gender neutrality is becoming a popular handwave and... I'm sorry but I don't buy that. A) That makes zero sense and B) that's simply not how transgenderism has been presented to us. At times it's almost like there's some unspoken understanding that this is all some form of performance art.
 
1. That's not how language works.
What do you mean here? If I mistake a woman for a man, I can't switch from "he" to "she" when corrected?

That comes as news to me.

2. No this is about more than pronouns. Come on let's be somewhat reasonable here. Social movements don't rise around pronouns.
Of course it is. It's about the fact that gender exists, and the people who think they don't see gender are only kidding themselves.

3. It seems more and more that treating transgenderism as a... temporary solution, something we're putting into place only until we rich some level of gender neutrality is becoming a popular handwave and... I'm sorry but I don't buy that. A) That makes zero sense and B) that's simply not how transgenderism has been presented to us. At times it's almost like there's some unspoken understanding that this is all some form of performance art.
I really don't have much interest in pursuing this line of thought. It seems obvious to me that gender nihilism is not the goal for most people, including most transgendered people, so this contradiction amounts to a straw man. No reasonable person is asking you to completely obliterate gender while also recognizing differences in gender.
 
...I can't imagine a more pointless waste of time than continuing to post in this thread, but I rashly came back to see what people were saying...


This article seems to be paywalled for some people but not others. A very interesting read if you can access it.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/paul-mchugh-transgender-surgery-isnt-the-solution-1402615120

The mantra that transitioning is unquestionably the best treatment for gender dysphoria doesn't seem well supported, and the scary suicide rates appear to be the ones after transition.



Well, here's what people are saying.

Tsukasa Buddha back on page 9:

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=12252084#post12252084

...We have plenty of research showing transition leads to the best outcomes. But again, this is the old framework of transitioning between binary genders due to dysphoria with adult patients.

Linky

http://news.cornell.edu/stories/201...sus-effectiveness-gender-transition-treatment

Which counters your WSJ article AND it's from this year!
 

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