Who determines the number of genders- and how?

[deadrose]

I've cleaned both men's and women's restrooms. Don't let women lie to you that their bathrooms are a paragon of cleanliness and non-disgustingness.

Now, back to your fighting about gender.

 

[shuttlt]

I've cleaned both men's and women's restrooms. Don't let women lie to you that their bathrooms are a paragon of cleanliness and non-disgustingness.

Now, back to your fighting about gender.

A woman at my new work told me the same ;-)

 

[tyr_13]

Only if you define it as the sort of thing where the subjects own feeling is decisive. This seems circular to me.

The whole point done to death a million times long before this thread is that a lot of people don't accept this very point

What do you mean by 'it' and 'feelings' because I'm getting the 'feeling' we're using the terms differently.

I think you might mean "refuse to give their legal name and known aliases"

Not "Don't want to use their birth name"

No, I do not. I mean they get held for giving their legal name rather than their birth name. They're also at greater risk of violence at the hands of police and a markedly reduced response to their reports of being victimized. This thankfully is one area that has gotten better in the last ten years, depending on one's location.

I know what the word means. It is just an odd word to use in the context.Just makes me wonder about the person writing the article, that's all.


From your link:
"And so, while the list of causes for transgender identity continues to grow, it has become quite clear that it is not a conscious choice – similar to what has been described for the “reasons” behind sexual orientation. Still, at least 63% of transgender individuals experience debilitating acts of discrimination on a regular basis, including incarceration, homelessness, and physical assault. When about 1.7% of the population is in some way affected by cases of ambiguous genitalia at birth, these findings seem staggering."
How does the 0.3% of the population the article says are trans being discriminated against because of their gender expression relate to men with tiny penises?

Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Did you think that ambiguous genitalia means only small penises?

The best I can make of what that section is saying is that many more people could be effected by this discrimination than currently are.

Ah, so lying to the police and then getting arrested counts as discrimination... OK.

No. Giving your legal name and held when everyone else would have been released is discrimination. This is much like how it's discrimination for black people and men to get much harsher sentences than others, even though they really did commit crimes too.

Can they use these features to sort a random pile brains into the gender they identify with any reliability? Are there features of female brains that don't correlate with trans females?

None that I know of.

From the little bit in the article, it seemed they went looking for brain features with statistical correlations between trans brains and the gender they identified with and then asserted the gender of the brain, what ever that is, is in the brain structures where trans brains were similar to the brains of the gender they identified with. That assumes the conclusion it is looking to prove.

Why do you feel this?

If somebody believed (does anybody on the thread believe this?) that there was some characteristic in the brains of born women that defined the essential essence of womanliness, but that trans women don't have it... How does pointing to brain structures in trans women's brains that are more in the female range, but possibly still overlapping with the male range (?), and ignoring the structures that mark those brains out as male get you anywhere? Who on the thread is being refuted here?

First, who is doing that? Secondly, as I pointed out above gender traits are clusters of tendencies. There are cis women whose traits don't all line up with women's traits.

Yes, who is being refuted here? Some people are actually interested in more information. It isn't just a debate team exercise.

 

[cullennz]

What do you mean by 'it' and 'feelings' because I'm getting the 'feeling' we're using the terms differently.



No, I do not. I mean they get held for giving their legal name rather than their birth name. They're also at greater risk of violence at the hands of police and a markedly reduced response to their reports of being victimized. This thankfully is one area that has gotten better in the last ten years, depending on one's location.



Now I really don't know what you're talking about. Did you think that ambiguous genitalia means only small penises?

The best I can make of what that section is saying is that many more people could be effected by this discrimination than currently are.




No. Giving your legal name and held when everyone else would have been released is discrimination. This is much like how it's discrimination for black people and men to get much harsher sentences than others, even though they really did commit crimes too.




None that I know of.



Why do you feel this?



First, who is doing that? Secondly, as I pointed out above gender traits are clusters of tendencies. There are cis women whose traits don't all line up with women's traits.

Yes, who is being refuted here? Some people are actually interested in more information. It isn't just a debate team exercise.

Which is why I put known aliases

Anyone can commit loads of crimes and then change their name.

The police need to know what the old one was just in case someone has done this

Trans or not

You chose to personalise it.

Which is a bit odd

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

The "two spirit" is an umbrella term for the third gender in certain Native American societies.

This is where it gets tricky. It, and many other third genders, only make sense in their unique social, cultural, and religious frameworks. What does it mean when one identifies with something that their society hasn't constructed? Are all constructions under the amoral umbrella of cultural relativity? Or are some better or worse, and we should try to change them? The answers seem to be different at different times.

On the one hand, the modern LGBT movement calls sexual orientation and gender social constructs. On the other, it is often seen as hegemonic, reading into other culture's its own definitions and appropriating as it sees fit.

 

[mgidm86]

I've cleaned both men's and women's restrooms. Don't let women lie to you that their bathrooms are a paragon of cleanliness and non-disgustingness.

Now, back to your fighting about gender.

True but I think men are a lot worse. It may depend on the type of location. I managed a bar for 5 years and the women's room never had puddles of urine on the floor (among other things) and it was used as much as the men's. The men's was not good at all.

If I had to drop a load and I had a choice between the two I would choose the women's room. I saw a bachelor pad recently and asked to use their toilet and oh my frickin' gawd I will not describe it here at all.

 

[qayak]

All you need to do is present evidence.

I think you misinterpreted something you read.

Lewis Wolpert is a developmental biologist who has studied how embryos develop from the fertilized egg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Wolpert

From Wolpert's book "Why Can't a Man Be More Like a Woman?: The Evolution of Sex and Gender.

The first big surprise happens before birth. All men in the world today are essentially biologically modified women, because we all start our embryonic lives as females (that is why, for example, men still have breasts, even though they serve no function). The biological differences that can be found between the bodies and brains of males and females are largely due to the way these embryos develop in the womb.

We all come from a single cell, the egg, from the female. The early development of the human embryo is similar in males and females, and is essentially female, with male features appearing only at later stages. Whether we develop as a female or male depends on whether the sperm brings in an X or Y chromosome. The genes on the Y chromosome cause testes to develop, which secrete the hormone testosterone and suppress female development.

Fair enough. How do you define "male"?

In humans it is the members of the species that normally produce sperm, or anyone who transitions to appear like one. This is a new definition actually because I'm all for transgendered people being called male or female if they choose. I really don't care about the other names they want to be called either as long as I don't have to use the silly wordage. And of course they don't get to decide how I identify.

No, me being wrong cannot follow from you missing the point. You'd have to understand and address the point first.

The point was addressed. The fact that you don't like the answer matters not.

 

[qayak]

I vote no. She claimed a background that did not exist.

Well that logic applies to many of the labels currently in use for gender identification.

 

[sadhatter]

This is the old framework. The current movement is against medical gate-keeping and outside determination. Only self-identification is required.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/outward/...nt_who_decides_when_transition_treatment.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...ender-recognition-self-identify-a7855381.html
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/10/19/us/birth-certificate-nonbinary-gender-california.html

When you remove all criteria from a definition, a logical person will default to a more specific definition as a definition requires criteria to be useful.

If I we're to say that the only requirement for a person to have type o blood is self identification ,even if I convince others to accept my new definition I have just made the term type o blood meaningless. And anyone who needs to actually use this information will either make a new term to describe the same thing type o used to mean ,or simply use the old definition.

This **** is useless, confusing being nice with being moral will lead to nothing but spinning our wheels and retarding the progress of not only equality by people simply getting the **** along.

 

[Belz...]

Being a 'man' or a 'woman' isn't and has never been one thing. It is a clustering of sexually dimorphic traits combined with social constructions on what those 'mean'. Taking out any six of them ultimately doesn't make them not the gender they are. A woman has breasts. Does a flat-chested woman not a woman, or even less of a woman? Is a man who develops female breast tissue not a man? Women can have children. Is a woman who cannot less of a woman, and a man who can't get a woman pregnant less of a man? Men and women respond differently to catecholamines, is a man who does not respond with excitement to them less of a man?

I guess you're not going to answer my question so here's another one: how about a man who CAN get pregnant, has breasts, female genitals, hormones and body structure, etc.?

Ultimately the only person who could figure that out is the person themselves. Their conclusion isn't just 'a feeling'.

You don't think that this flies in the face of every definition of everything? And how do you define "feeling" if it doesn't include how they feel about their bodies?

Could I decide that I'm not, in fact, left-handed despite the objective evidence available to other people? I want to know why you place such a relative importance on what the person determines on their own as opposed to objective evidence that everybody else can see and conclude from.

Those asking for single definitions on what it 'woman' means are asking for something simple, whether or not they realize it.

No, that doesn't follow at all. But those who refuse to provide that working definition are deliberately making it impossible to discuss.

 

[Belz...]

Lewis Wolpert is a developmental biologist who has studied how embryos develop from the fertilized egg.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lewis_Wolpert

From Wolpert's book "Why Can't a Man Be More Like a Woman?: The Evolution of Sex and Gender.

Wait a second. If one demonstration that men are modified women is that men have non-functional breasts, isn't the clitoris evidence that women are modified men? If you look at foetuses before a certain point their "eggs" are not where they should be for either sex. I don't really get his basis for that.

In humans it is the members of the species that normally produce sperm, or anyone who transitions to appear like one. This is a new definition actually because I'm all for transgendered people being called male or female if they choose.

Ok, fair enough. I find it a bit circular in that it's tailored to include trans-men but ok. I have a bit of an issue with the use of the word "normally", however. How would one determine that someone who doesn't produce sperm is a male, then?

The point was addressed. The fact that you don't like the answer matters not.

You didn't address it at all. Your responses showed that you didn't understand the point I was making. Why are so afraid to admit that?

 

[kellyb]

Everyone is born male or female and some spend a certain amount of time transitioning Modifying themselves) to the other gender so they are called transgender. In my opinion, once they get there they are just that gender and no longer trans. I can be on a trans-continental trip but once I get there the trip is over and I am just on the other side of the continent.

You have to be in denial of biology to not see that cisgender and transgender are different. Gender is not actually 100% like a transatlantic trip.

Whether words like "male" and "female" and "man" and "woman" should be trans-inclusive as a default is a matter of opinion.

 

[ponderingturtle]

PT: How do you feel about Mack Begg's then?

He should be competing against other boys.

Or for that matter, Fallon Fox?

Ok with it, is there any real data to show that trans women would dominate women's sports?

And what does that have to do with anything else as I accepted that the data may or may not back keeping trans women out of women's sports? Just that I had not seen anything conclusive on it.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Why are men kept out of women's spaces? Presumably the answer to why trans women are worrying to women lies there.

On a tangential note... My old work introduced gender neutral toilets, but enough women complained that it was abandoned. The tone of it was pretty much that it was disgusting to have to share with men. It was a nice office, it wasn't like people were smearing **** on the walls.

Culture would be the answer and that is the point of people trying to change the culture.

 

[ponderingturtle]

And if that were enough for the transgender rights activists, I don't think there would be such a huge brouhaha about it.

The problem we have today is that a lot of people say that since self-identification is enough in most social interactions, it ought to be enough in all social interactions.


Simply put, teenage girls are being told that they have to share a locker room with a man someone who is capable of making them pregnant. If they don't like it, they are labelled as bigots. That's nuts.

And yet young boys being raped by future speakers of the house is fine of course. Because that doesn't rock the boat.

You do know that teen pregnancies are at historic low levels right?

 

[ponderingturtle]

Oh, she's high grade crazy, but if trans-race exists the people who are going to try and live the trans racial life are going to self-select for outlier personality types. It takes crazy nerve for a white woman to walk about amongst black people with fake afro hair and fake tan pretending to be black.

Is it trans racial for a black person to pass as white? And what does that have to do with anything about gender?

 

[shuttlt]

The "two spirit" is an umbrella term for the third gender in certain Native American societies.

This is where it gets tricky. It, and many other third genders, only make sense in their unique social, cultural, and religious frameworks. What does it mean when one identifies with something that their society hasn't constructed? Are all constructions under the amoral umbrella of cultural relativity? Or are some better or worse, and we should try to change them? The answers seem to be different at different times.

On the one hand, the modern LGBT movement calls sexual orientation and gender social constructs. On the other, it is often seen as hegemonic, reading into other culture's its own definitions and appropriating as it sees fit.

Just seems odd to me to see two-spirit in the article. One wouldn't use Hindu Gods like Lakshmi on an article purporting to give the scientific consensus on birth defects, regardless of religious and cultural traditional that may exist linking the two.

Smacks up cultural appropriation if nothing else.

 

[ponderingturtle]

True but I think men are a lot worse. It may depend on the type of location. I managed a bar for 5 years and the women's room never had puddles of urine on the floor (among other things) and it was used as much as the men's. The men's was not good at all.

If I had to drop a load and I had a choice between the two I would choose the women's room. I saw a bachelor pad recently and asked to use their toilet and oh my frickin' gawd I will not describe it here at all.

Peeing on the floor is a lot more likely if you pee standing up. I am sure if more women peed standing up they would have more urine on the floor. And if fewer men did the same. Add drunk men with likely worse aim into it and you have a different situation than basic cleanliness.

 

[shuttlt]

Is it trans racial for a black person to pass as white? And what does that have to do with anything about gender?

Do they claim that they really are white in a sense that is similar to being trans sexual? In any case, I didn't introduce trans racialism into the conversation, so I haven't thought about it too hard. If self identification is all that is required for gender, I don't see why race should be different.

 

[shuttlt]

And yet young boys being raped by future speakers of the house is fine of course. Because that doesn't rock the boat.

You do know that teen pregnancies are at historic low levels right?

Seems like the resistance to trans in female toilets isn't prejudice about trans, but prejudice about men