The Trump Presidency (Act V - The One Where Everybody Dies)

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kookbreaker said:
Apparently. What does it have to do with Trumps laughable level of military qualifications?
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It has to do with the claim that getting promoted as an officer is a sign of qualification.

Getting promoted as an officer is one of the things that sets Senator Duckworth apart from Donald Trump. But it doesn't set her apart from military incompetents who also got promoted as officers. Therefore it is not a good basis for claiming that she is more qualified than Trump.

Besides, we hold that even Senators who have never served are still competent to oversee military matters. So her service record is a red herring, when it comes to qualifications as a military lecturer. Which has been my point all along.

I guess it's my fault for taking so long to make that clear. Her service record may make for a good zinger (and from the reaction here, it looks like it did), but it's a red herring in any serious discussion of qualifications.
 
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theprestige said:
I guess it's my fault for taking so long to make that clear. Her service record may make for a good zinger (and from the reaction here, it looks like it did), but it's a red herring in any serious discussion of qualifications.
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Not to those who think that maybe if that were a qualification, we wouldn't have gotten into so many stupid wars.
 
WilliamSeger said:
Not to those who think that maybe if that were a qualification, we wouldn't have gotten into so many stupid wars.
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So prestige and I are veterans. If the opposite side is going to talk about judgement on certain things to my cohort, I will take it.
 
theprestige said:
It has to do with the claim that getting promoted as an officer is a sign of qualification.

Getting promoted as an officer is one of the things that sets Senator Duckworth apart from Donald Trump. But it doesn't set her apart from military incompetents who also got promoted as officers. Therefore it is not a good basis for claiming that she is more qualified than Trump.
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This is like saying "I know that there are corrupt cops, you just became a cop. We can't trust you because you are probably corrupt.". You are taking an extreme point to downplay someone's experience.

Yes, there are bad officers. Some officers are better at adminstration, some at logistics, some at field command. Some are no good at anything miltary. Doesn't matter. The point is that the lowliest private who served in the Army 40 years ago doing nothing but KP duty will be able to lecture the walking orange joke that sits in the oval office.
 
BobTheCoward said:
So prestige and I are veterans. If the opposite side is going to talk about judgement on certain things to my cohort, I will take it.
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But you're a veteran who wants to debate that "military affairs" shouldn't include veterans affairs, while theprestige is a veteran who just wants to excuse Trump's incompetence at just about everything. I don't think I'll be attending your lectures.
 
theprestige said:
I, too, have served. I, too, have more military experience than Trump. That doesn't necessarily make me qualified to lecture on military affairs. I can tell you some stories, though.
.....
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Is the problem the word "lecture?" Duckworth may not be qualified to deliver a university-level lecture series, on, say, the weapons and tactics used at the Battle of Thermopylae. She is certainly qualified by training and experience to discuss matters like troop deployment, combat strategy, military appropriations, VA operations and veterans' medical care, etc. Trump has no training, experience or even casual curiosity about any of those things. If the two have conflicting views, I'd bet on her every time as the one who makes sense. Being a decorated combat veteran is just one factor.
 
WilliamSeger said:
But you're a veteran who wants to debate that "military affairs" shouldn't include veterans affairs, while theprestige is a veteran who just wants to excuse Trump's incompetence at just about everything. I don't think I'll be attending your lectures.
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Veterans affairs is not "the meaning of military service."
 
It's ludicrous argument that because Duckworth suffered severe casualties in combat she somehow has no other military credentials or knowledge. So to review:

She did make the rank of U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel, pilot, when she was injured and left the service. In addition:
joined ROTC as a graduate student, although my father, who served in the U.S. Marine Corps, can trace the military service in our family all the way back to the Revolutionary War. ... I had been pursuing a Ph.D. in political science when my National Guard unit was sent to Iraq. ... That day, and so many others when I served, illustrated the two most important lessons the military taught me: Never leave anyone behind—not on the battlefield and not in our country. And never put a service member in harm’s way without understanding the cost—the very real and very human cost—of war. ...families like mine, with fathers and brothers and sisters and mothers in the service, are always the first to bleed.
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And from this link:
Duckworth previously served as Assistant Secretary for Public and Intergovernmental Affairs in the United States Department of Veterans Affairs from April 24, 2009 to June 30, 2011, and as the Director of the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs from November 21, 2006 to February 8, 2009. ... She continues to serve as a Lieutenant Colonel in the Illinois Army National Guard along with her husband, Major Bryan W. Bowlsbey, a signal officer and fellow Iraq War veteran.[2]...

a Bachelor of Arts in political science, and received a Master of Arts in international affairs from George Washington University.[6]

Following in the footsteps of her father and ancestors, who served in the Revolutionary War, World War II, and the Vietnam War,[4] Duckworth joined the Army Reserve Officers' Training Corps as a graduate student at George Washington University in 1990. She became a commissioned officer in the United States Army Reserve in 1992 and chose to fly helicopters because it was one of the few combat jobs open to women....

Duckworth was working towards a PhD in political science at Northern Illinois University, with research interests in the political economy and public health in southeast Asia, when she was deployed to Iraq in 2004....

Duckworth was appointed Director of the Illinois Department of Veterans Affairs by Governor Rod Blagojevich[13][14][15] from November 21, 2006 to February 8, 2009. She was honored by Chicago's Access Living for "her extraordinary commitment to veterans with disabilities".[16]

On February 3, 2009, Duckworth was nominated to be the Assistant Secretary of Public and Intergovernmental Affairs for the United States Department of Veterans Affairs.[19] The United States Senate confirmed her for the position on April 22.[20] On June 30, 2011, Duckworth resigned from her position to launch her campaign for the U.S. House of Representatives in Illinois' 8th Congressional District.

Committee assignmentsEdit
Committee on Armed Services
Subcommittee on Tactical Air and Land Forces
Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations
Committee on Oversight and Government Reform
Subcommittee on Energy Policy, Health Care and Entitlements
Subcommittee on Economic Growth, Job Creation and Regulatory Affairs
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So if you are going to debate this woman's military knowledge, how about actually debating the facts rather than her combat injury as if that is all she ever accomplished.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
Her service would be the tie breaker.
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There's no tie to break, and service is not automatically a sign of fitness or qualification. I already have brought up examples of people with service records, who turned out to be unqualified. And an example of someone without a service record, whose qualifications to lecture on military matters are widely recognized.

Again, her service record is a red herring. If I had the choice of a military lecture from someone who had served, or from someone who hadn't served, I'd choose the lecturer who was actually more qualified to speak on the topic.
 
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Segnosaur said:
And once again, since you and theprestige seem to have trouble understanding....
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I understand all that just fine.

If Senator Duckworth had said that Trump's documented history of being an idiot about everything all the time puts him in a weak position to lecture her about the military, that would have been a sound argument.

Basing her claim on him not having served is not a sound argument.

Defending her claim because she got injured in combat, or because she somehow managed to get promoted a few times, is also not a sound argument.

I have no doubt that Senator Duckworth is demonstrably more qualified to lecture on military matters. But having a service record is not actually such a demonstration.
 
WilliamSeger said:
Yes, I understand: You're defending someone who isn't much "qualified to reason and have opinions about" much of anything -- apparently because of a complete lack of interest -- by denigrating the general notion of "qualifications" and then pointing out that it's "not necessary" to be commander in chief. Yes, it a demonstrated fact now that the only thing that's necessary is to win the Electoral College. You win.
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I'm not defending anyone. Senator Duckworth made a bad argument, and you're embracing it. I'm calling that out.

It is exactly because I take the notion of qualifications seriously, that I am pushing back against the service record claim to qualifications.

As to getting elected: Do you think that Senators who have never served in the armed forces should be allowed to sit on committees dealing with armed forces legislation? Should they be allowed to sponsor or to debate armed forces legislation? Hell, do you think Senators who haven't served should be allowed to vote on armed forces legislation?
 
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Skeptic Ginger said:
It's ludicrous argument that because Duckworth suffered severe casualties in combat she somehow has no other military credentials or knowledge. So to review:

She did make the rank of U.S. Army Lieutenant Colonel, pilot, when she was injured and left the service. In addition:

And from this link:

So if you are going to debate this woman's military knowledge, how about actually debating the facts rather than her combat injury as if that is all she ever accomplished.
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Because bob001 didn't post that.
 
theprestige said:
....
Basing her claim on him not having served is not a sound argument.
....
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Not just that he didn't serve, but that he apparently trumped-up a series of five trivial medical deferments. Some of us remember that there were Vietnam-era doctors who were prepared to issue documents in support of medical deferments for well-connected patients, when anyone else with the same "condition" would have been wearing the green. Trump not only didn't serve, he actively evaded service. So did a lot of other people of that era, including Bill Clinton and Dick Cheney, but they don't claim that the New York club scene was their "personal Vietnam."
 
theprestige said:
I understand all that just fine.

If Senator Duckworth had said that Trump's documented history of being an idiot about everything all the time puts him in a weak position to lecture her about the military, that would have been a sound argument.

Basing her claim on him not having served is not a sound argument.

Defending her claim because she got injured in combat, or because she somehow managed to get promoted a few times, is also not a sound argument.

I have no doubt that Senator Duckworth is demonstrably more qualified to lecture on military matters. But having a service record is not actually such a demonstration.
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So your complaint is about appearances? :rolleyes:
 
kookbreaker said:
This is like saying "I know that there are corrupt cops, you just became a cop. We can't trust you because you are probably corrupt.". You are taking an extreme point to downplay someone's experience.
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I'm not downplaying anything. Her military experience is a red herring. Her qualifications to sit in the Senate and debate military affairs does not stem from her military experience.

Yes, there are bad officers. Some officers are better at adminstration, some at logistics, some at field command. Some are no good at anything miltary. Doesn't matter. The point is that the lowliest private who served in the Army 40 years ago doing nothing but KP duty will be able to lecture the walking orange joke that sits in the oval office.
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I disagree.
 
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