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Recommend some Atonal Music

calebprime said:
(I've given him about 50 tries, and so far nothing registers on caleb's ears at all, aside from the vague and tentative first 2 minutes of each of his improvs.)

hm. Dark to Themselves
Click to expand...

Some of his solo playing might be appropriate for attempt #51. Silent Tongues may hold some appeal. It's even lyrical at times...
 
Crikey, before that last post I almost posted "Uh oh I didn't know there would be pop quizzes, I'm getting out of here pronto".

And now my friendship w/Caleb hinges on you Dani. I know you can do it!

I'm visually oriented in the extreme, and I don't have an instrument here with me. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. I'll come back to this when I have axe in hand, or humanatone in nose as the case may be.
 
for you varwoche, only if you post a YouTube of you personally performing Serenade to a Cuckoo with nose flute.
 
varwoche said:
Crikey, before that last post I almost posted "Uh oh I didn't know there would be pop quizzes, I'm getting out of here pronto".

And now my friendship w/Caleb hinges on you Dani. I know you can do it!

I'm visually oriented in the extreme, and I don't have an instrument here with me. That's my excuse and I'm sticking with it. I'll come back to this when I have axe in hand, or humanatone in nose as the case may be.
Click to expand...

If only I knew what is it that I'm supposed to do...

I'm thick. I need someone to spell it for me. "Scale space"... ehm... :boxedin:

Gee... what was a triad, again?

Let's give it a try anyway, just with the first one, so Calebprime can see how clueless I am and direct me to the correct way of looking at this... "scale space":

Bb,D,F,Ab

Ok. We got a Bb7, with I, III, V and bVII. And, whatever it is, scale space doesn't refer to each of the 12 tones as possible, or else this exercise would make no sense.

Right now, in my mind, scale space is a bit like fallacy space. I tend to think of already defined scales with names like some people think of defined fallacies with names instead of using logic.

So, when I see that type of chord, in practice I tend to think: Mixolydian, diminished and other combinations. The only note that doesn't fit, according to the "no 012" rule, is A (although I'd probably play it, both as a passing tone or a mistake, but not in the sense of note within a scale... except... wait... the so called bebop scale...). Is that the scale space for the first chord?
 
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You do not relish Tranya as I.

However, your basic intuition is sound.

Yeah, that's right only the a is bad, but, as you say, music.

But I'm talking about a static sort of exercise.

You make a list of all the possible ok scales.

eta: or, come to think of it, you use caleb's computer program that crashed your computer.

It turns out to be not that many, and they make interesting patterns,
and in the process, you find some fresh sounds.

So there, Mr. not-quite-living-up-to-my-narcissistic-expectations!

Dani is too cool for school, for exhaustive work like this -- sort of like filling out taxes, or simple math, or shopping list, intellectually, except: the sweet, sweet, unbearably magnificent harmonies that await the canine that pursues them, lean and smiling!
 
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Names of common scales I can think of for Bb, D, F, Ab. On Bb:

Mixolydian
Diminished halftone-wholetone
Lydian b7
Mixolydian b9b13
 
what's mixolydian b9 b13

lessee

c,db,e,f,g,ab,bb

ok, got it.

F harmonic minor.

but I did wrong key, no matter.

Heh. I'll have to check to see if you got them all. This is simple right/wrong.

Those are all the basic types, I think, but there may be some transp./ maybe harm major also?

I'm about to eat and my sugar is dangerously low. If you kill your professor, no more Tranya.

anyway. that was the least interesting of the bunch!
 
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Between the Mixolydian and the Mixolydian b9b13, there are two more combinations (b9 only, b13 only).
 
Yeah, so additional nice colors of scales you didn't mention.

eta: you beat me to it.
mixo b6
altered

and there are probably 3 to 6 more, this is sort of the point.

that is, if we make an exhaustive search, it will still be a small
number, and there may be a few that we didn't think of right away.
 
you don't have to do them all, but take 1 or 2 of the less conventional.

So you have to actually think about it.
 
Stop call it mixolydian not-mixolydian, it's barbaric, dammit!

They'd laugh you right out of ii V school!

mixolydian b9? mixo b13?

you need more consistent parlay
 
calebprime said:
Yeah, so additional nice colors of scales you didn't mention.

eta: you beat me to it.
mixo b6
altered

and there are probably 3 to 6 more, this is sort of the point.

that is, if we make an exhaustive search, it will still be a small
number, and there may be a few that we didn't think of right away.
Click to expand...

Altered (if we're talking about the same scale) doesn't fit. The problem is with the fifth. It has two neighbors a half tone apart.
 
calebprime said:
What is the total "scale space" as defined above of:

Bb,D,F,Ab?

Bb,D,Ab (just these three)

Bb,C#,D,A?

Bb,C#,D,Ab?

Bb, B, C#, D?
Click to expand...

Ok. Let's try with the whole bunch:

Bb,D,F,Ab: all, except A.

Bb,D,Ab: all, except A.

Bb,C#,D,A: all, except B, C, Eb, Ab.

Bb,C#,D,Ab: all, except C, Eb, A.

Bb, B, C#, D: all, except C, Eb, A.
 
I'll need some type of clue for the which series is tonal and which isn't exercise, because I don't have the slightest idea. For some reason I can't quote the post. It's #60.

ETA: Wait. The first one is a tonal row, and the other ones arent? Why?
 
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Dani, I was looking for the actual scales, beyond only pitches that are excluded. Figuring out which single pitches are excluded is first step. Then figure out which combinations of pitches are excluded. Then which scales are possible. (Conventional, according to this arbitrary (but good!) definition.

This would be a bit of work, especially if one hasn't been doing it in a while. It gets better with practice.





Microtonal Scales to the rescue!

I hadn't realized how incredibly good and useful 69Dodge's program is for exactly this, as well as every other musical calculation. And freeware, too. amazing.


Conventional 1-octave scales for given situations:

(note: program gives only names of scale-groups, so everything is called Lydian, for example.)

Code: 
Bb, D, F, Ab:

Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor       Ascending Melodic Minor  
(A# B C# D E F G G#)  (Bb B D Eb F Gb Ab)  (Bb C D Eb F Gb Ab)      
                                           (Bb C D E F G Ab)        

Harmonic Major        Lydian                                        
(A# B C# D F F# G#)   (Bb C D Eb F G Ab)                            
(Bb B D Eb F G Ab)    




Bb, D, Ab:

Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor       Ascending Melodic Minor  
(A# B C# D E F G G#)  (Bb B D Eb F Gb Ab)  (A# B C# D E F# G#)      
                                           (Bb C D Eb F Gb Ab)      
                                           (Bb C D E F G Ab)        

Harmonic Major        Lydian               Whole-Tone               
(A# B C# D F F# G#)   (Bb C D Eb F G Ab)   (A# C D E F# G#)         
(Bb B D Eb F G Ab)                                                  




Bb, C#, D, A:      

Harmonic Minor     Harmonic Major      Augmented 1-3     
(Bb C# D E F G A)  (Bb C# D E F# G A)  (Bb C# D F Gb A)  




Bb, C#, D, Ab:

Octatonic-Diminished  Ascending Melodic Minor  Harmonic Major       
(A# B C# D E F G G#)  (A# B C# D E F# G#)      (A# B C# D F F# G#)  



Bb, B, C#, D:

Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor      Ascending Melodic Minor  
(A# B C# D E F G G#)  (A# B C# D E F# G)  (A# B C# D E F# G#)      

Harmonic Major                                                     
(A# B C# D F F# G#)


Incidentally, the competence you'd develop with scales in this kind of work is exactly the same as if you'd taken The Lydian Chromatic Concept at NEC, except stripped of all the good and bad stuff that George Russell brought to it. This approach is strictly logical -- it's trivial for a computer. I spoke with one sax player who had taken a little Lydian Chrom. and boy was she hopelessly confused about helping herself with theory! A little knowledge is temporarily very confusing for some students, I guess. I don't mean to sound snotty, but it was strange to see her tie herself in knots trying to understand what scales to play on chords.
 
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I promise not to post a lot of this stuff, but

here's the 12 x 4 array above, treated like a 4-part chorale, lowest note in "bass" position, etc.

with added analysis showing the conventional scales that fit with these chords.

Code: 
Code:
p/0/9:...............E  Bb F# A  C# Eb C  F  Ab G  D  B                  
p/11/8:..............Bb Eb A  F  Ab C  D  B  E  G  F# C# 
p/11/6:..............F# C# Bb Eb A  F  Ab C  D  B  E  G  
p/0/0:...............A  C# Eb C  F  Ab G  D  B  E  Bb F#

                     0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 11



0 -- a,f#,bb,e
no: ab,b,f 
Octatonic-Diminished   Ascending Melodic Minor  Harmonic Major      
(A Bb C C# D# E F# G)  (A Bb C D E F# G)        (A Bb C# D E F# G)  
 

1 -- c#,c#,eb,bb
no: d,   no a,b   no c,b   no e,f   

number of scales found: 12

Octatonic-Diminished   Harmonic Minor        Ascending Melodic Minor  
(C# D# E F# G A Bb C)  (C# D# E G G# A# B)   (C# D# E F# G# A# C)     
                       (Db Eb F Gb A Bb C)   (Db Eb F G A Bb C)       
                                             (C# D# F G G# A# B)      

Harmonic Major         Lydian                                         
(C# D# E F# G A# B)    (C# D# E F# G# A# B)                           
(Db Eb E G Ab Bb C)    (C# D# F F# G# A# B)                           
                       (Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C)                           
                       (Db Eb F G Ab Bb C)                            



2 -- eb,bb,a,f#
no: ab,b, no d,e no f,g    no e,f 
Octatonic-Diminished   Harmonic Minor       Harmonic Major      
(D# E F# G A Bb C C#)  (Eb F Gb A Bb C Db)  (Eb F Gb A Bb C D)  
                       (Eb F# G A Bb C D)                       


3 -- c,eb,f,a
Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor       Ascending Melodic Minor  
(C D Eb F Gb Ab A B)  (C Db Eb F Gb A Bb)  (C Db Eb F G A Bb)       
                                           (C D Eb F G A B)         

Harmonic Major        Lydian                                        
(C Db Eb F Gb Ab A)   (C D Eb F G A Bb)                             
(C D Eb F Gb A Bb)                                                  



4 -- f,a,ab,c#
Harmonic Minor      Ascending Melodic Minor  Harmonic Major       
(F F# G# A B C# D)  (F F# G# A B C# D#)      (F Gb Ab A C Db Eb)  
                                             (F G# A B C# D E)    

Augmented 1-3                                                     
(F G# A C Db E)                                                   


5 -- ab,f,c,eb
Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor        Ascending Melodic Minor  
(Ab A B C D Eb F Gb)  (Ab B C D Eb F G)     (Ab Bb C D Eb F Gb)      

Harmonic Major        Lydian                                         
(Ab A C Db Eb F Gb)   (Ab Bb C Db Eb F Gb)                           
                      (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G)                            
                      (Ab Bb C D Eb F G)                             

Code:
p/0/9:...............E  Bb F# A  C# Eb C  F  Ab G  D  B                 
p/11/8:..............Bb Eb A  F  Ab C  D  B  E  G  F# C# 
p/11/6:..............F# C# Bb Eb A  F  Ab C  D  B  E  G  
p/0/0:...............A  C# Eb C  F  Ab G  D  B  E  Bb F#

                     0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 11


6 -- g,ab,d,c
Harmonic Minor      Ascending Melodic Minor  Harmonic Major    
(G Ab B C D Eb F)   (G Ab Bb C D E F)        (G Ab B C D E F)  

Lydian                                                         
(G Ab Bb C D Eb F)  


7 --  d,c,f,b
Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor     Ascending Melodic Minor  
(D Eb F Gb Ab A B C)  (D Eb F G Ab B C)  (D Eb F G A B C)         
                      (D E F G# A B C)                            

Harmonic Major        Lydian                                      
(D E F G Ab B C)      (D E F G A B C)                             



8 -- B,D,E,Ab
Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor      Ascending Melodic Minor  
(B C# D E F G G# A#)  (B C D E F G# A)    (B C D E F# G# A)        
                                          (B C# D E F# G# A#)      

Harmonic Major        Lydian                                       
(B C D E F G Ab)      (B C# D E F# G# A)                           
(B C# D E F G# A)            

9 -- E,B,G,G
Octatonic-Diminished  Harmonic Minor       Ascending Melodic Minor  
(E F G G# A# B C# D)  (E F# G A B C D#)    (E F G A B C# D)         
                      (E F# G A# B C# D)   (E F# G A B C# D#)       
                      (E G G# A# B C# D#)                           

Harmonic Major        Lydian               Augmented 1-3            
(E F G Ab B C D)      (E F G A B C D)      (E G Ab B C D#)          
(E F# G A# B C# D#)   (E F# G A B C D)                              
                      (E F# G A B C# D)                             




10 -- Bb,E,F#,D
Harmonic Minor      Ascending Melodic Minor  Harmonic Major      
(A# B C# D E F# G)  (A# B C# D E F# G#)      (Bb C# D E F# G A)  
                    (Bb C D E F# G A)                            

Whole-Tone                                                       
(A# C D E F# G#)                                                 


11 -- F#,G,C#,B                                         
Harmonic Minor      Ascending Melodic Minor  Harmonic Major       
(F# G A# B C# D E)  (F# G A B C# D# E)       (F# G A# B C# D# E)  

Lydian                                                            
(F# G A B C# D E)
 
calebprime said:
I promise not to post a lot of this stuff, but

here's the 12 x 4 array above, treated like a 4-part chorale, lowest note in "bass" position, etc.


Code: 
Code:
p/0/9:...............E  Bb F# A  C# Eb C  F  Ab G  D  B                  
p/11/8:..............Bb Eb A  F  Ab C  D  B  E  G  F# C# 
p/11/6:..............F# C# Bb Eb A  F  Ab C  D  B  E  G  
p/0/0:...............A  C# Eb C  F  Ab G  D  B  E  Bb F#

                     0  1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10 11
Click to expand...




Here's a drone-y realization of these 12 chords, a little loose if not downright wrong at times perhaps but sounds ok, spread over 8 minutes. Done with 43-note of 100EDO tuning on all instruments, stretched out with SoundHack and then shortened with crossfade edits with TwistedWave.

This could be the harmonic basis for my next piece, if it holds up ok for a few sessions.

https://app.box.com/s/mywsh8q2nci9vpy0sbozhg60x2nqe3zb


The question is how to lighten and leaven this lump of sound, so that it is not redolent of oppressive foreboding. Or would that be forbidding with smelly worry? Or oppressive with fragrant anxiety? Heavy with the smell of ordure?

I know from long experience with such matters that beds always feel this way, and that when you add figuration, the sound of the bed seems to change, as background clouds in the sky become less oppressive when seen in context.
 
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story of my life, no-one's gay for moleman, I start gettin' jiggy wit' d' numb', and suddenly that furtive deer, the elusive student, young Dani, last seen on foot fleeing from any sort of intellectual commitment or responsibility -- yes, him, her or it -- suddenly it's tumbleweeds, flopsweat, alone again naturally.

In a little while from now
If I'm not feeling any less sour
I promise myself to treat myself
And visit a nearby tower
And climbing to the top
Will throw myself off
In an effort to
Make it clear to whoever
Wants to know what it's like When you're shattered
 
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