Cont: The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 27

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So much for the, "she never complained at the time," talking point, as if that settles it.

Eventually one must concede that, first, she did complain; second, she complained in a manner that obliged the authorities to investigate; and third, that that investigation was probably as simple as.......

Comodi asking Napoleoni to come into her office, and she asked Napoleoni, "Did you hit her?"

When Napoleoni said, "No," the investigation was closed and Knox herself was charged with defaming the police.

Not only were the cards stacked against her, the remaining present day guilters have the cheek to claim Knox had never complained in the first place.

You would file a complaint with an independent body. No point complaining to your torturor.

Numbers: whilst a person can reasonably explain they were unable to complain about torture, given how secretive and undercover it is, no such concession is available for Article 6, which forms the main body of Knox' complaint.

Think about your own home country - Canada in your case [Bill]? - or the USA? - are you seriously trying to mislead the reader into believing there is no police complaints process?

I would say you were a liar.
 
You would file a complaint with an independent body. No point complaining to your torturor.

Numbers: whilst a person can reasonably explain they were unable to complain about torture, given how secretive and undercover it is, no such concession is available for Article 6, which forms the main body of Knox' complaint.

Think about your own home country - Canada in your case [Bill]? - or the USA? - are you seriously trying to mislead the reader into believing there is no police complaints process?

I would say you were a liar.

Knox isn't complaining that Italy tortured her. She's complaining that they used that torture to convict of her of a crime. The "process" was the trial, where she made her defense known, but at which she was found guilty, she appealed, but the appeal was rejected and the conviction finalized, hence the ECHR. I cannot dumb it down any further so I hope this helps.
 
Knox isn't complaining that Italy tortured her. She's complaining that they used that torture to convict of her of a crime. The "process" was the trial, where she made her defense known, but at which she was found guilty, she appealed, but the appeal was rejected and the conviction finalized, hence the ECHR. I cannot dumb it down any further so I hope this helps.

Not liking the verdict is not grounds for an ECHR hearing.
 
You would file a complaint with an independent body. No point complaining to your torturor.

Numbers: whilst a person can reasonably explain they were unable to complain about torture, given how secretive and undercover it is, no such concession is available for Article 6, which forms the main body of Knox' complaint.

Think about your own home country - Canada in your case [Bill]? - or the USA? - are you seriously trying to mislead the reader into believing there is no police complaints process?

I would say you were a liar.

Good grief. In Italy it is mandatory for a PM to investigate a crime of which they become aware. That's the process. And you're claiming it was up to Knox to launch a complaint. Sheesh.
 
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Knox isn't complaining that Italy tortured her. She's complaining that they used that torture to convict of her of a crime. The "process" was the trial, where she made her defense known, but at which she was found guilty, she appealed, but the appeal was rejected and the conviction finalized, hence the ECHR. I cannot dumb it down any further so I hope this helps.

I think it's important to use the actual terminology that ECHR uses for an allegation of this level of mistreatment. And that is the terminology Knox and her lawyers have used. The mistreatment was not "torture", it was "inhuman and degrading treatment".

Here's the ECHR's official statement in the Country Profile for Italy, under "Noteworthy Pending Cases", on page 13:

"Amanda Marie Knox v. Italy (no. 76577/13)
Case communicated to the parties in April 2016
This case concerns criminal proceedings in which Ms Knox was found guilty of making a false accusation. The offending statements were taken while she was being questioned in the context of criminal proceedings for the murder and sexual assault of her flatmate. The applicant was accused of implicating another person whom she knew to be innocent.
Ms Knox alleges that the criminal proceedings in which she was convicted were unfair, relying on Article 6 §§ 1 and 3 (a) (right to a fair trial – right to be informed promptly of the charge), (c) (right to legal assistance), (e) (right to assistance from an interpreter), Article 3 (prohibition of inhuman and degrading treatment) and Article 8 (right to respect for private and family life) of the Convention."

It's important to understand, as the guilters apparently cannot or will not, that a violation of Article 3 committed to obtain a statement to be used to convict someone - even a third person, not the one being "questioned" - implies that use of that statement for a trial resulting in a conviction is automatically a violation of Article 6 (right to a fair trial). It should also be noted that a violation of Article 8 (right to privacy) can also lead to a violation of Article 6.

I'll post here the relevant text of the ECHR's Guide to Article 6 (Criminal Limb), pages 26 - 27:

"135. In determining whether the proceedings {of a trial} as a whole were fair, regard must also be had to whether the rights of the defence have been respected. ....

136. As to the examination of the nature of the Convention violation found, the question whether the use as evidence of information obtained in violation of Article 8 rendered a trial as a whole unfair contrary to Article 6 has to be determined with regard to all the circumstances of the case, and in particular to the question of respect for the applicant’s defence rights and the quality and importance of the evidence in question....

137. However, particular considerations apply in respect of the use in criminal proceedings of evidence obtained in breach of Article 3. The use of such evidence, secured as a result of a violation of one of the core and absolute rights guaranteed by the Convention, always raises serious issues as to the fairness of the proceedings, even if the admission of such evidence was not decisive in securing a conviction....

138. Therefore, the use in criminal proceedings of statements obtained as a result of a violation of Article 3 – irrespective of the classification of the treatment as torture, inhuman or degrading treatment – renders the proceedings as a whole automatically unfair, in breach of Article 6.... The admission of such evidence obtained as a result of an act classified as inhuman treatment in breach of Article 3, but falling short of torture, will only breach Article 6 if it has been shown that the breach of Article 3 had a bearing on the outcome of the proceedings against the defendant, that is, had an impact on his or her conviction or sentence....

139. These principles apply not only where the victim of the treatment contrary to Article 3 is the actual defendant but also where third parties are concerned...."

Source: http://echr.coe.int/Pages/home.aspx?p=caselaw/analysis/guides&c=#
Link to PDF: Article 6 (criminal limb)
 
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Not liking the verdict is not grounds for an ECHR hearing.

Considering the ECHR has agreed to hear her case, I'd say the Court agrees there were more grounds than her simply not liking the verdict.

How's the search for those several citations coming along?
 
It's revealing how the guilters continually launch irrelevant analogies to jurisdictions, such as Canada or the USA, other than Italy and the Council of Europe (CoE). Italy is a founding member-state of the CoE, a treaty organization devoted to promoting the observance of human rights among its members, who have each solemnly agreed to follow the final judgments of the CoE's court, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR).

There are no "independent" complaint agencies in Italy; complaints are filed through the police with the prosecutor. The prosecutor is LEGALLY REQUIRED - it's in the Italian Constitution and detailed in the CPP - to prosecute any alleged crime of which he or she becomes aware by notification or observation.
 
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I think it's important to use the actual terminology that ECHR uses for an allegation of this level of mistreatment. And that is the terminology Knox and her lawyers have used. The mistreatment was not "torture", it was "inhuman and degrading treatment".

The PGP's use of the word "torture" is a tactic. Using inflammatory and hyperbolic wording is actually an effort to minimize the action.
 
The PGP's use of the word "torture" is a tactic. Using inflammatory and hyperbolic wording is actually an effort to minimize the action.

I disagree. It is part of a campaign to control the narrative, trying to normalize the inflamed (and false) rhetoric.
 
The guilters continually forget, misstate, mislead or even lie about the facts of the Amanda Knox - Raffaele Sollecito case.*

Thus their use of the word "torture" rather than Knox's real allegation of "inhuman and degrading treatment", the appropriate wording based on the Convention and ECHR case-law.

"ARTICLE 3
Prohibition of torture
No one shall be subjected to torture or to inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment."

Thus their use of absurd and irrelevant statements such as "Not liking the verdict is not grounds for an ECHR hearing." The truth is that the ECHR has recognized that Knox v. Italy has sufficient grounds for Communication of the case to Italy (communicated April, 2016); only cases meeting the ECHR's preliminary standards for admissibility are communicated. Furthermore, since the respondent state must raise any grounds of inadmissibility immediately (within the ECHR's given time limit) in response to the Communication, the appearance of Knox v. Italy in the Country Profile for Italy as a "Noteworthy Pending Case" indicates that the ECHR has not found any valid grounds from Italy for rejecting the case as inadmissible.

* I borrowed some of this wording from an article in the WaPo on another topic.
 
I fail to see how our two views are incompatible.

I then have probably misunderstood what was meant by, "an effort to minimize the action." To me the inflated narrative they construct is to maximize and exaggerate.
 
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I then have probably misunderstood what was meant by, "an effort to minimize the action." To me the inflated narrative they construct is to maximize and exaggerate.

They exaggerate as sarcasm which actually minimizes Knox's claims.

Knox claims she was "smacked on the back of the head" which the PGP exaggerate to claims of "torture" which Knox has never claimed. This is the PGP way of making fun of Knox's claims which minimizes it.
 
I then have probably misunderstood what was meant by, "an effort to minimize the action." To me the inflated narrative they construct is to maximize and exaggerate.

They exaggerate as sarcasm which actually minimizes Knox's claims.

Knox claims she was "smacked on the back of the head" which the PGP exaggerate to claims of "torture" which Knox has never claimed. This is the PGP way of making fun of Knox's claims which minimizes it.

The language and its meaning describing the police treatment of Knox is important.

As Stacyhs points out, the guilters use the term "torture", a word not used by Knox or her lawyers in their application to the ECHR, as a sarcastic attack on her allegations and her actual experience of mistreatment by the police.

The implication of the guilters is that a few slaps on the head, as well as the other police offenses including but not limited to shouting, threats, lies, misrepresentations, mistranslations, and suggestions that Knox had amnesia, should not and could not have caused Knox to agree to sign a false statement.

It's important to understand that the kind of mistreatment experienced by Knox is categorized by the ECHR as "inhuman and degrading treatment" rather than as "torture", and thus falls within the range of mistreatment prohibited by Article 3 of the Convention.

The definitions of "torture", "inhuman treatment", and "degrading treatment" are provided, somewhat loosely, in ECHR case-law.

Bouyid v. Belgium 23380/09[GC] 28/09/2015 is an important and relevant case in which the ECHR found that police slapping - without justification - of persons present in a police station, one there for an identity check and the other for questioning, was a violation of Convention Article 3.

The judgment in the Bouyid case provides insight into how the ECHR would consider Knox's allegation. In brief summary, the ECHR found that the unjustified slapping of a person by a police officer (or similar authority), especially when that person was under police control, was an affront to human dignity. Such an affront to human dignity was necessarily degrading treatment.

Furthermore, even earlier ECHR case-law established the importance of various factors, such as the intent of the mistreatment administered by police and the status (sex, age, etc.) of the person mistreated. Mistreatment of a person to extract a false (or even a true) statement or confession would be a significant factor indicating a violation of Article 3.

Here are some relevant excerpts from the Bouyid v. Belgium judgment (inline citations omitted for clarity):

"86. Ill-treatment must attain a minimum level of severity if it is to fall within the scope of Article 3. The assessment of this minimum depends on all the circumstances of the case, such as the duration of the treatment, its physical or mental effects and, in some cases, the sex, age and state of health of the victim. Further factors include the purpose for which the ill-treatment was inflicted, together with the intention or motivation behind it, although the absence of an intention to humiliate or debase the victim cannot conclusively rule out a finding of a violation of Article 3. Regard must also be had to the context in which the ill-treatment was inflicted, such as an atmosphere of heightened tension and emotions.

87. Ill-treatment that attains such a minimum level of severity usually involves actual bodily injury or intense physical or mental suffering. However, even in the absence of these aspects, where treatment humiliates or debases an individual, showing a lack of respect for or diminishing his or her human dignity, or arouses feelings of fear, anguish or inferiority capable of breaking an individual’s moral and physical resistance, it may be characterised as degrading and also fall within the prohibition set forth in Article 3. It should also be pointed out that it may well suffice that the victim is humiliated in his own eyes, even if not in the eyes of others.
88. Furthermore, in view of the facts of the case, the Court considers it particularly important to point out that, in respect of a person who is deprived of his liberty, or, more generally, is confronted with law-enforcement officers, any recourse to physical force which has not been made strictly necessary by his own conduct diminishes human dignity and is, in principle, an infringement of the right set forth in Article 3.
89. The word “dignity” appears in many international and regional texts and instruments. Although the Convention does not mention that concept – which nevertheless appears in the Preamble to Protocol No. 13 to the Convention, concerning the abolition of the death penalty in all circumstances – the Court has emphasised that respect for human dignity forms part of the very essence of the Convention, alongside human freedom.

90. Moreover, there is a particularly strong link between the concepts of “degrading” treatment or punishment within the meaning of Article 3 of the Convention and respect for “dignity”. In 1973 the European Commission of Human Rights stressed that in the context of Article 3 of the Convention the expression “degrading treatment” showed that the general purpose of that provision was to prevent particularly serious interferences with human dignity. The Court, for its part, made its first explicit reference to this concept in the Tyrer judgment, concerning not “degrading treatment” but “degrading punishment”. In finding that the punishment in question was degrading within the meaning of Article 3 of the Convention, the Court had regard to the fact that “although the applicant did not suffer any severe or long-lasting physical effects, his punishment – hereby he was treated as an object in the power of the authorities – constituted an assault on precisely that which it is one of the main purposes of Article 3 to protect, namely a person’s dignity and physical integrity”. Many subsequent judgments have highlighted the close link between the concepts of “degrading treatment” and respect for “dignity”."
 
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Here's an additional relevant excerpt from the judgment of Bouyid v. Belgium, going into some of the specifics of that case. The relevance to Knox v. Italy includes, for example, that even an impulsive but unjustified act of minor violence by a police officer on a person is a violation of Article 3, and that there is no threshold of severity for a violation of Article 3 for degrading treatment. The excerpt further states that there is a duty of the police to protect the persons under their control - for example, a person in a police station for questioning or even an identity check. While the applicants in Bouyid v. Belgium experienced only degrading treatment, in the case of Knox, it is clear the ECHR will likely judge her experience was one of inhuman and degrading treatment, because of the duration of the mistreatment, the mistreatment including other measures besides the slaps, the apparent mental suffering she endured (Giobbi testified he heard her screaming during the interrogation), the effects of the total regimen of mistreatment on her memory, the police objective of coercing a (false) statement from her, the effect of the false statement on her status - which allowed the police and prosecutor to pretend that they had reasonable suspicion to arrest her, and the effect of the false statement on her trial and (wrongful) conviction for calunnia against Lumumba.

Here's the excerpt (inline citations omitted - with one exception - for clarity):

"100. As the Court has pointed out previously, where an individual is deprived of his or her liberty or, more generally, is confronted with law-enforcement officers, any recourse to physical force which has not been made strictly necessary by the person’s conduct diminishes human dignity and is in principle an infringement of the right set forth in Article 3 of the Convention.

101. The Court emphasises that the words “in principle” cannot be taken to mean that there might be situations in which such a finding of a violation is not called for, because the above-mentioned severity threshold has not been attained. Any interference with human dignity strikes at the very essence of the Convention. For that reason any conduct by law-enforcement officers vis-à-vis an individual which diminishes human dignity constitutes a violation of Article 3 of the Convention. That applies in particular to their use of physical force against an individual where it is not made strictly necessary by his conduct, whatever the impact on the person in question.
102. In the present case the Government did not claim that the slaps of which the two applicants complained had corresponded to recourse to physical force which had been made strictly necessary by their conduct; they simply denied that any slaps had ever been administered. In fact, it appears from the case file that each slap was an impulsive act in response to an attitude perceived as disrespectful, which is certainly insufficient to establish such necessity. The Court consequently finds that the applicants’ dignity was undermined and that there has therefore been a violation of Article 3 of the Convention.

103. In any event, the Court emphasises that a slap inflicted by a law-enforcement officer on an individual who is entirely under his control constitutes a serious attack on the individual’s dignity.
105. The Court reiterates that it may well suffice that the victim is humiliated in his own eyes for there to be degrading treatment within the meaning of Article 3 of the Convention. Indeed, it does not doubt that even one unpremeditated slap devoid of any serious or long-term effect on the person receiving it may be perceived as humiliating by that person.

106. That is particularly true when the slap is inflicted by law-enforcement officers on persons under their control, because it highlights the superiority and inferiority which by definition characterise the relationship between the former and the latter in such circumstances. The fact that the victims know that such an act is unlawful, constituting a breach of moral and professional ethics by those officers and – as the Chamber rightly emphasised in its judgment – also being unacceptable, may furthermore arouse in them a feeling of arbitrary treatment, injustice and powerlessness.
107. Moreover, persons who are held in police custody or are even simply taken or summoned to a police station for an identity check or questioning – as in the applicants’ case – and more broadly all persons under the control of the police or a similar authority, are in a situation of vulnerability. The authorities are consequently under a duty to protect them. In inflicting the humiliation of being slapped by one of their officers they are flouting this duty.
108. The fact that the slap may have been administered thoughtlessly by an officer who was exasperated by the victim’s disrespectful or provocative conduct is irrelevant here. The Grand Chamber therefore departs from the Chamber’s approach on this point. As the Court has previously pointed out, even under the most difficult circumstances, the Convention prohibits in absolute terms torture and inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment, irrespective of the conduct of the person concerned. In a democratic society ill-treatment is never an appropriate response to problems facing the authorities. The police, specifically, must “not inflict, instigate or tolerate any act of torture or inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment under any circumstances” (European Code of Police Ethics, § 36). Furthermore, Article 3 of the Convention establishes a positive obligation on the State to train its law-enforcement officials in such a manner as to ensure their high level of competence in their professional conduct so that no one is subjected to torture or treatment that runs counter to that provision.

112. Given that the applicants referred only to minor bodily injuries and did not demonstrate that they had undergone serious physical or mental suffering, the treatment in question cannot be described as inhuman or, a fortiori, torture. The Court therefore finds that the present case involved degrading treatment.
113. Accordingly, there has been a violation of the substantive head of Article 3 in respect of each of the applicants."
 
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They exaggerate as sarcasm which actually minimizes Knox's claims.

Knox claims she was "smacked on the back of the head" which the PGP exaggerate to claims of "torture" which Knox has never claimed. This is the PGP way of making fun of Knox's claims which minimizes it.

She has quoted Article 3 in her ECHR claim. This is the 'torture' article. It needs to be rather more substantial than 'the police were mean to me'.


The police are not your mates.


Boninsegna agreed the police treated Knox too kindly.
 
Good grief. In Italy it is mandatory for a PM to investigate a crime of which they become aware. That's the process. And you're claiming it was up to Knox to launch a complaint. Sheesh.

'Fraid so. How is the PM going to know about torture and cruelty if it is not reported?

The American ambassador and Knox' lawyers had every opportunity to go down the complaints route.
 
It's revealing how the guilters continually launch irrelevant analogies to jurisdictions, such as Canada or the USA, other than Italy and the Council of Europe (CoE). Italy is a founding member-state of the CoE, a treaty organization devoted to promoting the observance of human rights among its members, who have each solemnly agreed to follow the final judgments of the CoE's court, the European Court of Human Rights (ECHR).

There are no "independent" complaint agencies in Italy; complaints are filed through the police with the prosecutor. The prosecutor is LEGALLY REQUIRED - it's in the Italian Constitution and detailed in the CPP - to prosecute any alleged crime of which he or she becomes aware by notification or observation.

Then why didn't Carlo Dalla Vedova file a complaint?

In court, he and Knox agreed she was treated well.
 
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