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Trans Women are not Women

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Giz said:
I think your version of the Olympics might be a little bloated and unwieldy.

I'd like you to run it though, as the Olympics are a bit of a bore.
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Let all the groups claiming to be the Olympics select the weightlifters they reach an agreement with.
 
crescent said:
I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage.
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Probably depends on how easy it is. In the UK there's currently an initiative to amend the Gender Recognition Act to remove all conditions for getting a so-called "Gender Certificate", which basically makes it illegal for organizations or groups restricted to the gender on that certificate to refuse you for that reason.

Right now the conditions are having gender dysphoria and living as the acquired gender for at least two years. So it's unlikely someone is going to get a medical diagnosis and change their gender role merely for athletic advantage. The initiative would however remove those conditions and grants it on simple self-declaration, so it'll be more likely to see it used for athletic and other advantage.
 
theprestige said:
And yet it doesn't matter enough that drivers (riders?) are selected the same way as horse jockeys.
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You'd be surprised. I've met a bunch of the top riders up to and including Freddie Spencer and they're all smaller guys. The largest pro racer I've met was Scott Russel and he was still significantly smaller than I am.

The long running joke is this: "If I was 100 lbs lighter none of you could beat me!"
 
cullennz said:
They can still compete though

They just cant do it waving a Russian flag

And when one of the top nations in the medal table says "Independent" I think 99% of people will just think "Russia did well this year"
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Some may be able to compete. No flag. No anthem. They may call them "athletes from Russia".

Read about the extent that the state sponsored deceiving the IOC. 1/3 of medalists were on the list of cheaters.

There's an easy solution to this problem and it has worked well for quite some time.

Trying to medically determine if a transgender man can fairly compete with women sounds imprecise, and at best is guesswork. Ridiculous. If you were born a man then that's what you are as far as sports are concerned. Like I said, verrrry simple. if you can't deal with that, try chess.
 
crescent said:
I really doubt that anyone becomes transgender just to have an athletic advantage. There have been cases of men trying to present themselves as women to gain athletic advantage, but that is not at all the same thing as being transgender, just as wearing drag to a costume party does not make a man into a transgender woman.
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The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.

Under plans being considered by ministers, adults will be able to change their birth certificates at will without a doctor’s diagnosis, while non-binary gender people will be able to record their gender as “X”.
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http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/transgender-rules-reform-gender-dysphoria-changes-2004-gender-recognition-self-identify-a7855381.html
 
Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.
 
I actually don't really see a real issue for athletics.

We call certain sports and events "Women's" but they are actually "Female's". The reason behind having separate "men's" and "women's" athletics is based in differences of sex, not differences of gender. We happen to use gender terms because of how we have historically viewed them, but no one really disagrees that it is sex that is meant to be distinguished.

So although we call it "Women's Basketball" (or whatever sport) we actually mean "Female's Basketball" (or whatever sport). Trans women are women (gender) but they are not females (sex). So there is absolutely no contradiction in recognizing that trans women are really women but that they may be barred from competing in female designated sports.
 
While the article was about sport, its only ancillary to the subject rather than the subject. It was only up because I was too lazy to find this one: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/10/0...e-makes-historic-change-transgender-students/

sadhatter said:
I find situations like this interesting.

It shows that we are at a strange interval in equality, we are not quite at the point where we can have real frank useful discussions,we are all about being nice, but we are afraid to be reasonable for fear of being mean.

That is not showing trans people respect, that is treating them like disabled children, unable to understand to be reasonable, through no fault of their own.
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Nicely put.

I don't think there's an easy answer, and I certainly don't think the answer is to state that trans women are women.

Aber said:
The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.
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Looks like I need to update my thinking to "Transitioning is a choice."

That legislation is straight-out bollocks.

cullennz said:
Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.
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Equally-stupid legislation.
 
cullennz said:
Was reading about Canada's C-16 bill the other day.

If anyone can be bothered googling it is quite amusing, If a tad scary.

Among other things it makes publications both public and private (e.g. tutors notes in uni's) refering to someone by their wrong chosen gender pronoun a hate crime.
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Aber said:
The debate has moved on to the extent that it is seriously being considered by the UK government that gender should be a matter for self-identification.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ender-recognition-self-identify-a7855381.html
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Prime examples of idiots taking it too far.
 
lobosrul5 said:
Its a pretty damn big deal in some motorsports. I've heard 1 kg is worth .03 seconds per lap on the average F1 track. Doesn't sound like much but thats just about 2 seconds over the course of a race per kilo. Most drivers are smaller than average and I've heard stories of them starving themselves leading up to a race weekend.

Their height also matters the higher the drivers head the more drag.
The heavier the car the less the drivers weight will impact performance, and that goes even more so if your mostly drafting. So its not too critical for NASCAR for example.
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Interestingly, this has only fairly recently become such an issue in F1.

F1 cars have a minimum weight specification (currently 728kg). They used to actually have to work to meet this requirement by adding ballast - somewhere in the region of 150kg. The advantage of a lighter driver was that they were able to shift more weight, and hence balance the car - the centre of gravity is not so rooted in the centre of the car with the driver, and they could shift the balance where it is most needed - which varies from track to track.

These days, with larger, heaver power units and additional tech requirements, ballast is not such a major factor. F1 teams are fairly secretive but I have heard some comments that some F1 teams may well not be using ballast at all in order to minimise weight.

However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.
 
I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.
 
Bikewer said:
I seem to remember much the same discussions about trans tennis player Renee Richards.

The conclusion was that though Richards might enjoy an advantage at first, this would rapidly dissapear as continued use of female hormones would tend to equalize the difference.
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Except that the new initiatives in the UK (and apparently Canada) are so as to remove any conditions from legal gender reassignment. So no requirements for hormone therapy, or to actually have gender dysphoria or anything at all. I would be able to just go to the city hall and get a certificate to enter women's sports without needing to change anything about myself. Under those conditions it's a bit easier to see how that might get abused.
 
Worm said:
However, while it is a general rule of thumb that heavier=slower, the relationship between weight, power, aerodynamics and grip are complex, and it's perfectly possible for a heaver car to go faster than a lighter one if the additional weight compensates by adding more overall speed.
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Sure, but having extra "dead weight" will always make a car accelerate and take corners just that bit slower. Its super important in open wheel racing on road/street courses. NASCAR where they cruise around on high banked ovals, not so much.

Its mainly the batteries that make current F1 cars so heavy and with less room for ballast.

But, back to the topic, no its not fair to let a man compete in women's sports. Its perfectly fair to allow women to race competitively.
 
Do you know if it's a question of inertia and mass rather than weight?
I'm asking because I'm wondering about the thingies (don't know the word) that aerodynamically press down a racing car to give it more grip, i.e. make it 'heavier' without adding (significant) extra mass.


PS It just occurred to me that this has got nothing to do with the theme of this thread, sorry!
 
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By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)
 
tyr_13 said:
By this reasoning, Russian athletes aren't women either.

This is just one step up from the former argument that if you don't want to have sex with them, they aren't really women (which means your mother isn't a woman either).

(On the more productive topic than the OP personal hangups on women, there are many medical conditions that prevent people from engaging in competitive sports, and being transgender is generally one of them.)
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What are you talking about?
 
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