Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[King of the Americas]

Here are some interesting fields for KOTA

https://goo.gl/maps/jbcNCWPEomC2

This is a great example of inefficient re-occupation. Many modern farmers use this circular crawlers for irrigation. The original designers of these grid gardens used more of a canal watering system. Often holding ponds are located just above the fields, and then fed with irrigation ditches.

We do it differently now, and as evident in the picture, some places are left empty altogether.

 

[King of the Americas]

Projecting much?

Shush!

You have reading to do.

http://www.pnas.org/content/106/13/4957.long

 

[Andy_Ross]

This is a great example of inefficient re-occupation. Many modern farmers use this circular crawlers for irrigation. The original designers of these grid gardens used more of a canal watering system. Often holding ponds are located just above the fields, and then fed with irrigation ditches.

We do it differently now, and as evident in the picture, some places are left empty altogether.

But they aren't al all ancient, it was all empty prairie not so long ago. Those circular crawler irrigation is very efficient, that's why they are used.

 

[Tolls]

I would still be interested in the coordinates for those fields etc in the Himalayas.

Oh, and I see you have discovered PNAS. Not that you seem to understand what it is you are looking at, as the reports you've posted so far do not support your thesis at all.

 

[King of the Americas]

These do not date the 'grid gardens'. They date the start of agriculture in Mexico.
Nothing in this paper indicates that the modern fields you keep posting pictures of date back to the advent of agriculture thousands of years ago.

And nothing indicates the neccesity of the technologically advanced, globally connected society you claim must have created them.

I didn't say "technologically advanced"...

---

My thesis asks, "Should similarly sized and shaped grid gardens, found everywhere, be considered evidence of a single advanced agricultural civilization?

In order for you to understand my thesis, you need to understand that I am drawing a correlation between three things:

The SIZE of these grids
The SHAPE of these grids
The LOCATION of these grids

They are MASSIVE
They are SYMMETRICAL
They are EVERYWHERE, even below the ocean surface

Therefore...and here's where it gets tricky-

BECUASE some are under water, they are old.
BECAUSE they are the same size and shape, they are connected

Can we agree up to this point?

 

[King of the Americas]

But they aren't al all ancient, it was all empty prairie not so long ago. Those circular crawler irrigation is very efficient, that's why they are used.

I know WHY they are used. My point is the fields weren't designed for them, but rather ground delivered canal irrigation.

---

Empty prairie in the shape of grids...

 

[Andy_Ross]

No the ground was divided up by roads and then sold of as plots, these plots were marked out as squares because it was the easiest way to mark them out and divide up the land.
Those circular crawlers are so much more efficient and produce so much more than other methods that they can afford to leave the corners fallow (although I have seen smaller circular irrigated circles squeezed in to the fallow areas)

Fields in England are smaller as they were based on 'Hides' areas of land that can be plowed by one team of plough and oxen in a day.
Fields close to towns and villages tend to be long and narrow as the plots were divided based upon the street frontage whereas fields in open country are more square.

 

[TheSupermeerkat]

Shush!



You have reading to do.



http://www.pnas.org/content/106/13/4957.long

Do your own reading. Oh wait! You don’t - you just imagine things and make fantastic claims and quickly abandon them when the jig is up (cough beer brewing cough).

 

[SOdhner]

My thesis asks, "Should similarly sized and shaped grid gardens, found everywhere, be considered evidence of a single advanced agricultural civilization?

No.

They are MASSIVE
They are SYMMETRICAL
They are EVERYWHERE, even below the ocean surface

Yeah people grow lots of stuff. For human food, for non-human food, for textiles, etc. So you'd expect there to be lots of fields. I don't know what you mean my symmetrical - would you expect them to be some strange jagged shape? Of course the most common shape for a field is going to be rectangular.

And you haven't shown that they're below the ocean. You've shown some vague lines, but there's no reason to think these are fields. You're using circular reasoning - "These undersea lines are roughly similar to the shape of some fields I saw, so they must be old fields! Since these are old fields, they must be connected to the ones on land!" That's a big loop, not evidence. Prove what the undersea lines are - they may turn out to be natural formations or mapping artifacts or something. But even then you still need to connect them to modern fields.

BECUASE some are under water, they are old.
BECAUSE they are the same size and shape, they are connected

You haven't shown that they're underwater.

Even if they were that wouldn't mean they're connected to other fields elsewhere.

 

[John Jones]

Was the issue of beer brewing ever gotten to the bottom of, or did KotA just merrily flit to another topic?

The flit thing

 

[JesseCuster]

STOP...PLEASE...I BEG OF YOU!?!?

I NEVER SAID THESE RUINS WERE 12,000 YEARS OLD!!!

How old do you think the Himalayan site is? You have gone out of your way to tell us that it is how good a condition the village is in. You're arguing that it has been recently abandoned.

You haven't explained why a recently abandoned village in the Himalayas is evidence of anything to do with anything you've written. You just dumped into the thread as if others were expected to tie it into your overall rambling incoherent narrative.

You've made great hay of the fact the the village contains no cars or people or animals or whatever and assuming you're right that it has been abandoned (a big if given your woeful track record), you've also been keen to point out in what good condition the village is in, with roofs intact on houses, etc.

So how does a recently abandoned village provide evidence of an ancient civilised agricultural civilisation? It's this specific piece of evidence I'd like to see you address and how it fits into your increasingly incoherent and rambling topic.

I'm not touching on your other rambling claims about grid gardens on the bottom of the sea (or whatever), I just want to know the fact that a village in the Himalayas was recently abandoned somehow provides evidence that there was a globally connected advanced agricultural civilisation thousands of years ago. I don't think you have a coherent narrative here at all and are just dumping any **** you find into the thread in an attempt to Gish Gallop your way out of the mess you've made.

 

[Andy_Ross]

What are the coords of the village?

 

[Tolls]

I would still quite like the coordinates...

 

[JesseCuster]

So...

I found an entire intact village, complete with grid gardens, and buildings that still have roofs...empty...

It's a whole city...and I see no signs of recent human activity...it is tucked away up in the Himalayas, and the nearest road or population center is 30 miles away.

There are no roads or paths leading to it from the highway...

Please provide the co-ordinates for this place, I want to check it out myself.

edit: That's 3 requests for the co-ordinates in quick succession. I think you're legally obliged to provide the information now.

 

[John Jones]

For that matter, provide the coordinates every time you post a site. You want us able to check your 'facts' don't you?

 

[JesseCuster]

You want us able to check your 'facts' don't you?

I do believe that's the last thing he wants.

Every time someone checks his facts he responds with ALL CAPS INCREDULITY... WHAATTT???

 

[StackOverflow]

Can we agree up to this point?

Nope, you are a proven liar, so nobody agrees with you about anything.

 

[Crawtator]

I was born and raised in South Louisiana. About 1 1/2 miles from my home was a castle built in the mid 1900's by a man who had made a substantial amount of money from oil and gas leases. As far as I know, it is one of the few true castles in Louisiana. He later abandoned it after becoming ill and his children didn't want to sink any more money into a pet project which was EXTRAORDINARILY wasteful.

Surrounding this castle are thousands of acres of soybean, rice and crawfish fields. They are, as most fields are, laid out in a geometric grid.

KotA: by your argument, this abandoned structure which is clearly not like any other in the area, and surrounded by these farms is indicative of....something ancient? I have met EVERY individual involved in the cultivation of those lands and the man who actually built this structure. Your incredulity in this matter astounds me.

I've met several people who happened to come across this castle while boating on the nearby river. Almost every one that sees it for the first time without fore-knowledge acts astounded and surprised when I tell them its history (as bland as it is). Now, seeing you engage in this sort of activity is not surprising for me, from the fact that I have seen it so many times. It is purely an argument from incredulity and is a horrible way to fashion an argument.

I'm sure that the locals from the areas you keep posting coordinates from would say the say thing that everyone here is saying: "SO WHAT?!? We know the story of this area way better that someone making suppositions from thousands of miles away without any actual research!"

 

[Craig B]

Perfectly maintained agricultural fields...

How can these be the abandoned remnants of a culture that died out millennia ago?
You do realize that fields don't look like this for even a few years after they stop being cultivated?

Sometimes they vanish altogether as far as the unaided eye is concerned. The oldest known field system is Céide Fields, Co Mayo, Ireland. This structure was provisionally detected, by ground probing with rods, in the 1930s, but it was not until the 1970s that the system was substantially uncovered. Needless to say it shows no sign of being technically advanced, or part of a global civilisation twelve thousand years old. It is less than half that age.

 

[SOdhner]

Needless to say it shows no sign of being technically advanced, or part of a global civilisation twelve thousand years old. It is less than half that age.

But don't you see? That's the proof!

If this much more recent field is so pathetic as to vanish entirely, but the older ones are still visible all this time later, then they must have been made by the Atlanteans! Clearly! I mean if you just look at Google Earth it's obvious that there are ancient structures everywhere. Did you know, from looking at Google Earth I was able to determine that the Chinese place down the street from me is on the site of an ancient structure.

1. The building is the same shape and size as many identified ruins.
2. I can draw a line directly from it to Easter Island.
3. It's the best Chinese food in Arizona, that can't be a coincidence.
4. There are many fields nearby, all rectangular.
5. It's still standing even after 12000 years!
6. I have not found any record of the names of the people who supposedly built it. Highly suspicious.
7. It appears to be in great shape on Google Earth, but I can't see any people or animals nearby. There are some cars, but they're just left in the parking lot as if abandoned.