Gratitude, Compulsion, Idiocy or Nobility?

[bruto]

Yes modern technology has polluted the basic nature. Although I also understand but still I simply do my natural duty, rest leave on nature. When I shall go up, I shall definitely request god to show me plants grown from those seeds which I dispersed.

Our modern city life, usage of flush, less green area, modified fruits etc. are interfering in natural growth of fruit plants. One day, all may be over, but I am doing some for future. Many fruit plants can still come up from such seeds dispersal.

No sir, you simply don't understand at all. Although some fruit seeds will result in plants that grow edible fruit, many will not. This is not a matter of what is nice and urban and stylish, but of what trees will be strong enough to survive and what trees will bear fruit that human beings can and will eat. Most of the fruits and vegetables you eat come from domesticated strains of plants. Even those vegetables that now breed true from seed are the result of many generations of hybridization and selective breeding. If you eat corn or squash or an apple or a carrot, you are benefitting from a long history of the human interaction and domestication you so belittle. We have "interfered" with the natural growth of fruit plants since prehistoric times, to the benefit of our species and some others too.

 

[Peregrinus]

We have "interfered" with the natural growth of fruit plants since prehistoric times...

One could say the domestication of cereal grains with a reliable harvest and the potential for a food surplus to be held against lean years made human history possible.

 

[JayUtah]

One could say the domestication of cereal grains with a reliable harvest and the potential for a food surplus to be held against lean years made human history possible.

That's true for a lot of things that Kumar wants to dismiss as "unnatural." He draws an artificial distinction that excludes most products of human ingenuity, innovation, and artifice -- you know, those things we evolved as survival traits.

 

[Kumar]

No, that's not what happens in nature.

That actually happen in nature but not well documented.

 

[Kumar]

This thread was a bait and switch all along, expose the brutality of meat and root-veg eating and then hit the unbelievers with the divine truth of Jainism.

Well done, Kumar, how many converts did you win? Or is it like the Jehovah's Witnesses* and you'll receive a karma purge just for your duplicity?


*another religion that you will be ignorant of

When you flow in river, you can get many variations. Natural.

 

[Kumar]

That does not mean they would not benefit from fertilization from the body of the fruit

There is a limit of fully maturing of seeds. Like fruits naturally fall down on full ripening, seeds should also seprate from pulp.

 

[Kumar]

Again you didn't answer my question.

NO surprise there.....

Hans

I feel you didn't understood. However, you can repost your question.

 

[Kumar]

That's true for a lot of things that Kumar wants to dismiss as "unnatural." He draws an artificial distinction that excludes most products of human ingenuity, innovation, and artifice -- you know, those things we evolved as survival traits.

Yes, but at the cost of physical health loss. It is bit indicative that naturally, health is more important than survival in unhealth.

 

[JayUtah]

That actually happen in nature but not well documented.

If you can't document it, then you don't know it to be what "actually" happens in nature. What you're giving me is a lame excuse for why you can't support your allegations. The belief that animals pick the seeds out of fruit before eating them, and disperse them the way you envision humans should be obliged to do, is what your religion teaches. It's not what happens in nature. You have simply come to see that sort of doctrinal edit as a proclamation for how nature works, superior to and irrespective of what career scientists actually discover. You told us yourself you hold your religious teachings in higher regard than observable fact. So what you're doing now is simply another case of you filtering fact according to what you already believe. You desperately need nature to work according to your ascetic visions, so you just pretend it does and that you're somehow absolved from proving it.

A quick Google Scholar search provides dozens of peer-reviewed scientific papers from appropriately qualified career scientists that relate the reproduction patterns of plants to the defecation patterns of the animals that carry their seeds. There appears to be no evidence in the literature that validates your pick-the-seeds-out hypothesis. Since my claim is the one that's well documented, it beats yours.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes, but at the cost of physical health loss. It is bit indicative that naturally, health is more important than survival in unhealth.

No, none of this makes sense. Despite several requests, you haven't shown the evidence for your claim that Jains are, on the whole, any healthier than the rest of the population. You especially haven't explained your diabetes in light of your lofty claims. Further, you completely ignored the species sustainability factors that your other critics have brought up. Even granting your claims for the sake of argument, you haven't made a cogent argument for the alleged survival advantage of keeping a small population in elevated health over the advantage of a larger population in somewhat lesser health. Your model optimizes for only a small number of the variables that affect species survival and are thus evolutionarily significant.

 

[Peregrinus]

When you flow in river, you can get many variations. Natural.

*

If this has anything to do with the domestication of plants or animals, I'm the Queen of Spain.

*Along with "odd," "nature/natural" is another term Kumar uses in a manner quite opaque to the rest of the world.

 

[Kumar]

If you can't document it, then you don't know it to be what "actually" happens in nature. What you're giving me is a lame excuse for why you can't support your allegations. The belief that animals pick the seeds out of fruit before eating them, and disperse them the way you envision humans should be obliged to do, is what your religion teaches. It's not what happens in nature. You have simply come to see that sort of doctrinal edit as a proclamation for how nature works, superior to and irrespective of what career scientists actually discover. You told us yourself you hold your religious teachings in higher regard than observable fact. So what you're doing now is simply another case of you filtering fact according to what you already believe. You desperately need nature to work according to your ascetic visions, so you just pretend it does and that you're somehow absolved from proving it.



A quick Google Scholar search provides dozens of peer-reviewed scientific papers from appropriately qualified career scientists that relate the reproduction patterns of plants to the defecation patterns of the animals that carry their seeds. There appears to be no evidence in the literature that validates your pick-the-seeds-out hypothesis. Since my claim is the one that's well documented, it beats yours.

Purpose and modality is same in case of endozoochory and seed dispersal by separation of seeds from fruits and dispersing it. Human also follow endozoochory for smaller & soft seeds. However, we resisted it by using modern pots or covering open land into concrete jungle, is an issue related for both of these.

Actually they categorized endozoochory for all animals and birds. But separation of seeds is specific to humans which they commonly & naturally practice. Moreover whether you eat full fruit with seed or without seeds, state of maturity of seeds will be the same. I practice it intentionally by conscious mind by understanding it my natural duty. Technically, I should also pass stool in some remote natural area(practiced by many).

 

[Kumar]

No, none of this makes sense. Despite several requests, you haven't shown the evidence for your claim that Jains are, on the whole, any healthier than the rest of the population. You especially haven't explained your diabetes in light of your lofty claims. Further, you completely ignored the species sustainability factors that your other critics have brought up. Even granting your claims for the sake of argument, you haven't made a cogent argument for the alleged survival advantage of keeping a small population in elevated health over the advantage of a larger population in somewhat lesser health. Your model optimizes for only a small number of the variables that affect species survival and are thus evolutionarily significant.

Forget specific religion. But don't you feel, it can be physically unhealthful to take unnatural odd foods in quality & quantity, easy getting of foods on food stores & storing, easy digesting due to cooking so easy and excessive absorption? As I am discussing in Consciousness/self awareness topic, it is indicative that due to these, there can be physical and mental odds. May it be responsible to modern odd introduction due to using less physical strength and compensated more mental strength(both way odd)?

 

[Kumar]

*

If this has anything to do with the domestication of plants or animals, I'm the Queen of Spain.

*Along with "odd," "nature/natural" is another term Kumar uses in a manner quite opaque to the rest of the world.

Yes, it can lead to excessive & easy intake of foods without much efforts, so odd & unnatural.

 

[JayUtah]

However, we resisted it by using modern pots or covering open land into concrete jungle, is an issue related for both of these.

How very simplistic a view. We also plant them in very large orchards that could not exist naturally without our care, and we breed species that wouldn't otherwise exist. Once again you simply cherry-pick the observations. You're proposing the Luddite view without answering the species survival factor questions.

But separation of seeds is specific to humans which they commonly & naturally practice.

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're telling me that it's natural to pick seeds and consume the pulp yourself, but also that humans are the only ones that do it. Humans are also the only ones who cultivate plants in great quantities, far beyond that which is possible without their aid.

Moreover whether you eat full fruit with seed or without seeds, state of maturity of seeds will be the same.

Already addressed. The "maturity" of the seed is not the question. The question is whether your practice is what nature does.

I practice it intentionally by conscious mind by understanding it my natural duty.

If you're trying to tell me that you do indeed pass seeds in your stool, then I'm going to point out that you changed your story. Earlier you told us that you picked the seeds out of the fruit, ate the fruit yourself, and then cast the seeds away to fend for themselves. Now after you have learned what really happens in nature, you're trying to tell us that's what you do instead.

 

[JayUtah]

Forget specific religion.

No. You're obviously preaching just Jainism, so that's what we'll stick with.

But don't you feel, it can be physically unhealthful to take unnatural odd foods in quality & quantity...

Your notion of diet comes from Jainism, not nature. You're trying to beg the question that it's obviously the right way to live.

Provide evidence for your claims or withdraw them.

 

[Kumar]

How very simplistic a view. We also plant them in very large orchards that could not exist naturally without our care, and we breed species that wouldn't otherwise exist. Once again you simply cherry-pick the observations. You're proposing the Luddite view without answering the species survival factor questions.




You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. You're telling me that it's natural to pick seeds and consume the pulp yourself, but also that humans are the only ones that do it. Humans are also the only ones who cultivate plants in great quantities, far beyond that which is possible without their aid.



Already addressed. The "maturity" of the seed is not the question. The question is whether your practice is what nature does.



If you're trying to tell me that you do indeed pass seeds in your stool, then I'm going to point out that you changed your story. Earlier you told us that you picked the seeds out of the fruit, ate the fruit yourself, and then cast the seeds away to fend for themselves. Now after you have learned what really happens in nature, you're trying to tell us that's what you do instead.

Yes there are many types of seed dispersal. Seed dispersal by animals by taking fruits is one type.

 

[JayUtah]

Yes there are many types of seed dispersal. Seed dispersal by animals by taking fruits is one type.

You're avoiding the issue. You're claiming that in the specific case of fruit, it's natural to separate the seeds from the pulp, consume the pulp yourself, and throw the seeds away to fend for themselves. You admit there's little if any evidence for this being a natural practice. You're ignoring the rather well-documented practice of animals defecating the seeds they've consumed, which is in fact the rule in nature. It's fairly obvious you're trying to change the facts to support your predetermined belief. It's what you have to do to escape from what is, on its face, a disastrous dietary policy.

 

[Kumar]

No. You're obviously preaching just Jainism, so that's what we'll stick with.



Your notion of diet comes from Jainism, not nature. You're trying to beg the question that it's obviously the right way to live.

Provide evidence for your claims or withdraw them.

I have no resistance or issue to suggest or oeach Jainism because it is something different. But I am just taking true religion from it. Do not be stubborn or otherwises.

 

[Kumar]

You're avoiding the issue. You're claiming that in the specific case of fruit, it's natural to separate the seeds from the pulp, consume the pulp yourself, and throw the seeds away to fend for themselves. You admit there's little if any evidence for this being a natural practice. You're ignoring the rather well-documented practice of animals defecating the seeds they've consumed, which is in fact the rule in nature. It's fairly obvious you're trying to change the facts to support your predetermined belief. It's what you have to do to escape from what is, on its face, a disastrous dietary policy.

No, that is A&F so need no evidence. We are destroying seeds & green areas which we have to compensate anyhow. That is our natural liability. I am not ignoring defecating the seeds is one type of seed dispersal(though which we opposed due to modern ways of defecating) but I have told additional type of seed dispersal specific to humans. Read "endozoochory" which I mentioned previously.