Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[Reality Check]

Emphasizes how idiotic his use of current Google Earth images is

There are NO triangles here...it's all perfectly square rows of trees 45 feet apart.

24 November 2017: Emphasizes how idiotic his use of current Google Earth images is!
From the 1980 document:
3. Planting. The seedlings are planted in plots (1 km2) covering 100 ha. Planting systems used are: 10 × 10 m in square formation and 15 × 15 m in triangular.
Where are the triangular plots now? According to you they no longer exist. The reasonable answer is that the trees were harvested and the fields replanted in squares. That debunks your assumption that the plantations never changed.

 

[Reality Check]

A fantasy and a lie about evidence of Chilean government funding

I said there is no evidence of the chilean government funding or building this project, AND THERE ISN'T.

24 November 2017: A fantasy and a lie about evidence of Chilean government funding.
The fantasy is that only the Chilean government would build tree planting projects. It is probable that all they did was fund research projects and encourage farmers to do the planting. Use a bit of common sense and ask who profits from the trees? The answer is the people running the sheep and goats eating the tree fruit, the people cutting the trees down for firewood and the people cutting the trees down for furniture making. So who are the most probable people to pay for and actually plant the trees?

The lie:
prosopis tamarugo: fodder tree for arid zones (1980) was published by the FAO Regional Office for Latin America, Santiago, Chile. The authors include

Mario A. Habit: FAO Regional Plant Production and Protection Officer for Latin America. Much of his life has been devoted to research on fodder and animal production in arid and semi-arid climates. In 1963, as Executive Director of the National Programme for Livestock Development in Chile, he began research on combined forestry and grazing systems with tamarugo in the most northern part of the country.

"National Programme for Livestock Development" sounds like a Chilean government funded program and is:

The "Corporación de Fomento de la Producción de Chile (CORFO) (Chilean Corporation for the Promotion of Production), through its National Livestock Development Programme (1961–1970) tried to approach the problem of the development of the northern areas in a different way - a way which might be called “desert economics”, or making use of those special natural features of desert regions which are difficult to alter. The main idea was to transform the desert into an ecosystem where agro-forestry would predominate an attractive hypothesis no doubt, from the standpoint of harmonious social and economic development.

CORFO is a Chilean governmental organization as you already know.

 

[Reality Check]

Irrelevant delusion about a lost city in the African rain forest

Lost City of the Rainforest- Africa

24 November 2017: Irrelevant delusion about a lost city in the African rain forest.
There is nothing special at the coordinates given.

 

[Reality Check]

Since KOTA is so obsessed with Google Earth, let us use a Google Earth feature.
Go to the northern plantations around Negreiros at ( 19°53'15.64"S 69°52'54.89"W).
Zoom into the area until there is a "2005" icon on the lower left - the is historical Google Earth imagery. Click and you get a slider for the image dates.
Zoom out a bit until the slider shoes dates from 1984 onward.

You can now see the trees being planted from nothing to what is there today !

There only tiny change for the southern Pampa del Tamarugal National Reserve (20°28'11.57"S, 69°40'23.06"W). A few new plantings to the south between 1984 and 2017.

 

[Craig B]

Lost City of the Rainforest- Africa

Lat. 0°50'34.76"N
Long. 15°50'41.68"E

Ah, now we are following in the footsteps of Colonel Percy Fawcett, the eccentric explorer of S America who disappeared in 1925 on a search for a lost jungle city and has never been heard of since.

He had a bit of a "thing" about lost jungle cities ruled by beauteous white queens, but his searches for these were more assiduous than fruitful.

Perhaps Google Earth would have provided the necessary data, had it been available in the 1920s.

ETA I've just found this fascinating link wherein all is explained.

'I can now show that there were scores of associates who were planning to go out and join Fawcett to live in a new, freer way,' said Williams, who has become a confidant of Fawcett's descendants. He has also uncovered a drawing of a beguiling and ageless 'sith' or female 'spirit guide' who he suspects is near the heart of the mystery. Appearing only to the Fawcett family and to those who try to track the expedition's path, the erotic siren draws white men into the jungle.​

if KotA is white I hope that no erotic sirens will endeavour to lure him to his doom amid the tangled forests of the Tarapacá Department.

 

[Tolls]

Lost City of the Rainforest- Africa

Lat. 0°50'34.76"N
Long. 15°50'41.68"E

I assume you're talking about all those straight lines, which are roads.

You do realise (I know you don't, but what the hell) that that entire state of the Republic of Congo is a logging state. The forests in there are all marked as logging concessions. Those are the roads into the forest used by the logging companies.

Have a map:
http://www.wri.org/resources/maps/republic-congo-logging-concessions-and-protected-areas

ETA: The state is Sangha state (well, department, as it was French).
It's the big orange block around Ouesso, which is the state capital.

 

[Porpoise of Life]

So KOTA, Why do you keep bringing up pictures of modern infrastructure as evidence for ancient lost civilisations?

 

[Tolls]

Because he's either:
a) taking the piss
or
b) is clueless.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Ruins from one of the farms...Yup, that's 1960's design alright...pfft.

On Google Earth, turn on the Photos option.

Can you point out the resemblances between these ruins and those at Puma Punku, or any of the other ancient sites you have mentioned as being part of the supposed lost global civilisation?

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Just because you were unable to find the right information online doesn't mean it doesn't exist anywhere. Nor does it mean that others should do your work for you.
Have you contacted the Chilean government as I suggested? I'm sure their input would be invaluable.

NO ONE has found or produced a SINGLE shred of evidence...

I have looked, on multiple occasions, read and posted links to multiple books on Chile's economic history, and haven't found anything.

But, by ALL MEANS...go forth, gather the evidence you claim exists, and present it here.

I have checked every source I could, with no results.

The study provided shows the requirements for establishing ONE tree..."11 waterings" that soak the ground...then watering ever 20 days... Chile is not now, nor 50 years ago, was it capable of providing an additional 100's of millions of water for a plantation in the desert...*Citations provided.

This project has no designer, lead engineer, budget, plans, workers, or infrastructure still available for review...

I've looked, others have looked, and NOTHING...

Please, prove me wrong...produce that which you claim exists.

In other words, no, you haven't contacted the Chilean government, and no, you have no intention of doing so.
If you are that keen to get to the bottom of this, surely that would be a way to do it? I'm sure the Chileans would be pleased and proud to have a hitherto-unrealised relic of an enormous, pre-conquest plantation in their country. Think of the tourism possibilities, for a start. If they don't know about this, which you could establish by simply asking them, perhaps they would benefit from your great archaeological discovery?

 

[King of the Americas]

That's Scotland not England, I can't get there although I have driven past up the A7.
That is all Forestry Comission plantations of pine all post ww2

So, I've been searching England and Scotland...I can't find any naturally occurring old growth...EVERYTHING is artificially planted.

Are there any ancient growth tree stands?

 

[Craig B]

So, I've been searching England and Scotland...I can't find any naturally occurring old growth...EVERYTHING is artificially planted.

Are there any ancient growth tree stands?

Scotland has been subject to ruthless deforestation, and around 98% of the original pine forest has been lost. While sheep and huge herds of red deer, no longer culled by predators, are allowed to graze on unfenced mountain pasture, the tree growth has had no opportunity to recover.

But you are unable to find any old natural growth anywhere in the world and you have declared the world's tropical rainforests to be artificial creations. I think that is delusory and absurd. Why are you unable to define any trees you see as occurring naturally? Are all wild animals escapees from zoos?

In ancient times the Caledonian Forest^WP was very extensive. References to surviving remnants of natural forest may be found in my link, and can easily be located on websites as they tend to attract tourists and naturalists.

 

[King of the Americas]

New Oleans?

No, I am pretty sure those were supposed to be ruins on the side of an english island.

---

Thesis Statement: Do the same garden plots' style and measurements connect different geographical locations to a single agrarian culture?

Method: Using historic shipping routes revealed on google earth, I looked at in-land intersection points for similarly shaped and sized large agricultural grids in-use or abandoned.

Thoughts?

 

[King of the Americas]

In other words, no, you haven't contacted the Chilean government, ...

Actually, I did, as well as a PhD doing research on the history of their economy.

I've heard nothing back from the government- http://www.gob.cl/en/

The researcher had never heard if the project...

 

[Porpoise of Life]

No, I am pretty sure those were supposed to be ruins on the side of english island.

---

Thesis Statement: Do the same garden plots' style and measurements connect different geographical locations to a single agrarian culture?

Method: Using historic shipping routes revealed on google earth, I looked at in-land intersection points for similarly shaped and sized large agricultural grids in-use or abandoned.

Thoughts?

You need to establish their age. If these grids are supposed to support your claim for a pre-classical global civilisation, you need to be able to show that these structures are:
a: Actually agricultural grids, as you claim
b: Are old enough to predate written history, which they need to be if they are supposed to be traces of a completely unrecorded yet global culture.

and that's just your preliminary research. Once you've established that, you still need to investigate these sites for material evidence that there was trade between the various sites.

 

[King of the Americas]

24 November 2017: A fantasy and a lie about evidence of Chilean government funding.
The fantasy is that only the Chilean government would build tree planting projects. It is probable that all they did was fund research projects and encourage farmers to do the planting. Use a bit of common sense and ask who profits from the trees? The answer is the people running the sheep and goats eating the tree fruit, the people cutting the trees down for firewood and the people cutting the trees down for furniture making. So who are the most probable people to pay for and actually plant the trees?

The lie:
prosopis tamarugo: fodder tree for arid zones (1980) was published by the FAO Regional Office for Latin America, Santiago, Chile. The authors include

"National Programme for Livestock Development" sounds like a Chilean government funded program and is:

CORFO is a Chilean governmental organization as you already know.

Authors of a study are NOT the designers of a project. Nor are they the lead engineer, or workers.

Try looking for their budget, an how much money they spent on the project (*https://books.google.com/books?id=C...e&q=CORFO, chile, annual budget, 1960&f=false).

It does NOT exist.

 

[King of the Americas]

You need to establish their age. If these grids are supposed to support your claim for a pre-classical global civilisation, you need to be able to show that these structures are:
a: Actually agricultural grids, as you claim
b: Are old enough to predate written history, which they need to be if they are supposed to be traces of a completely unrecorded yet global culture.

and that's just your preliminary research. Once you've established that, you still need to investigate these sites for material evidence that there was trade between the various sites.

So, I am just amending my thesis and methodology...

---

Thesis Statement: Do pre-Columbian garden plots' style and measurements connect different geographical locations to a single agrarian culture?

Method: Using historic shipping routes revealed on google earth, I look to date, in-land intersection points for similarly shaped and sized large agricultural grids in-use or abandoned.

 

[King of the Americas]

So KOTA, Why do you keep bringing up pictures of modern infrastructure as evidence for ancient lost civilisations?

Are you referring to re-occupations of old garden grids?

 

[Porpoise of Life]

You can't use Google Maps to determine the age of a field.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Actually, I did, as well as a PhD doing research on the history of their economy.

I've heard nothing back from the government- http://www.gob.cl/en/

The researcher had never heard if the project...

Interesting. At the time of my post, you hadn't, or at least you didn't mention it before. If that's true, then less than 24 hours have elapsed between your not having contacted them, and your claim that you had.
Were you really expecting a response that quickly? My experience of bureaucracies the world over tells me not to expect anything at all in less than a week.
Have you tried contacting someone who knows about forestry, rather than economics? It is hardly surprising that your PHD had never heard of the project: it's hardly their field.