Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[abaddon]

We know from David Powers' contemporaneous handwritten notes that the casket was *selected* around midnight. That note was written on the spot, or at the latest the next day (Manchester's book implies it was written on the spot). That trumps the funeral arrangements document which was written a week after.

Ummm. Having been in the position of actually selecting a casket, I can guarantee that human memory is totally messed up.

 

[MicahJava]

Exhibit A:

[qimg]https://media.giphy.com/media/10kWDRGNgMf0hq/giphy.gif[/qimg]

Note the lack of blood pouring out the back of his head indicating no GSW prior to Oswald's second shot.

It's a little too dark to see back there, don't you think?

 

[MicahJava]

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12075814&postcount=2884

From Manchester's book, it reads:

Dave Powers squiggled:

Around midnight Ken, Larry, and I picked out a coffin for our President

And in the endnotes of the book, it says this:

David Powers, Handwritten notes of November 22–23, 1963

 

[MicahJava]

I just checked my watch..."Around Midnight" is not an actual increment of time.

Hmm. You're right, it could have been later. After all, the documents from Gawler's say the replacement casket was delivered at 2 AM, and it's only a 15 minute drive between their funeral home and Bethesda hospital.

 

[abaddon]

It's a little too dark to see back there, don't you think?

No. That is your strange claim.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=12075814&postcount=2884

From Manchester's book, it reads:

Dave Powers squiggled:

Around midnight Ken, Larry, and I picked out a coffin for our President

And in the endnotes of the book, it says this:

David Powers, Handwritten notes of November 22–23, 1963

Manchester concluded that LHO acted alone. Somehow, you think you can cherry pick and avoid that.

 

[Tomtomkent]

"Around midnight Ken, Larry, and I picked out a coffin for our President"

-David Powers, Handwritten notes of November 22–23, 1963.

cited in The Death of a President by William Manchester, 1967

This is referring to the mahogany coffin that was then transported along with the morticians that worked on Kennedy.

Which would be after 11pm when clearance was given.

 

[HSienzant]

Hmm. You're right, it could have been later.

Or earlier.

So after affirming the accuracy of Powers handwritten time of "about midnight", you're throwing him and his notes under the bus in your need to move the autopsy to after 2pm? You contradict yourself so often it's become a running joke by now.

After all, the documents from Gawler's say the replacement casket was delivered at 2 AM, and it's only a 15 minute drive between their funeral home and Bethesda hospital.

The documents from Gawler's also say the morticians were held out of the autopsy room until the autopsy was completed:
"AT THIS MEETING WE WERE INFORMED TO STANDBY, UNTIL ALL EXAMINATIONS OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY, WERE COMPLETED."

The FBI (Sibert and O'Neill) report also says the morticians entered the autopsy room only after the autopsy was over.
"At the termination of the autopsy, the following personnel from Gawler’s Funeral Home entered the autopsy room to prepare the President’s body for burial..."

The documents from Gawler's also say the morticians started their work after 11pm and concluded about 4am:
"CLEARANCE WAS RECIEVED TO PROCEED WITH THE PREPARATION AFTER 11 P.M., NOVEMBER 22, 1963. UNDER THE SUPERVISION OF MR. HAGAN, THE EMBALMING, COSMETICS, RESTORATION (EXTENSIVE CRANIAL DAMAGE), DRESSING AND CASKETING WAS COMPLETED BY 4 A.M. ON SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 23, 1963."

Humes estimated the autopsy was over about 11pm:
Mr. SPECTER - What time did this autopsy end?
Commander HUMES - At approximately 11 p.m.

For some reason you turn a blind eye to all the evidence from all the documents that contradict your theory, and use an estimate from one document to introduce your speculations here ("it could have been later").

But we saw why that's not a good approach from the ARRB Final Report:
"The deposition transcripts and other medical evidence that were released by the Review Board should be evaluated cautiously by the public. Often the witnesses contradict not only each other, but sometimes themselves. For events that transpired almost 35 years ago, all persons are likely to have failures of memory. It would be more prudent to weigh all of the evidence, with due concern for human error, rather than take single statements as "proof" for one theory or another."

But if you did it the right way, you wouldn't have an argument.

And you know that.

And so does everyone else.

That's why you fail to convince.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

So after affirming the accuracy of Powers handwritten time of "about midnight", you're throwing him and his notes under the bus in your need to move the autopsy to after 2pm? You contradict yourself so often it's become a running joke by now.

Sorry, that should read after 2am (Saturday morning).

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

It's a little too dark to see back there, don't you think?

Not with all of that sunlight, no.

 

[pgwenthold]

We know from David Powers' contemporaneous handwritten notes that the casket was *selected* around midnight.

Is 11 pm "around midnight"? Or 1 am?

You might have to ask David Powers what time range he considers to be "around midnight" but absent anything specific, I have a hard time imagining why anywhere from 11 pm - 1 am would not be considered "around midnight."

 

[MicahJava]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5th225wgsk

 

[HSienzant]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5th225wgsk

So just your normal nonsense then.

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

So just your normal nonsense then.

Hank

Clint Hill, written statement, November 30, 1963:

 

[Tomtomkent]

The autopsy was completed an unknown time before 2.45 am?

Now... I could be wrong, but on most days 11pm is before 2.45 am...

 

[MicahJava]

The autopsy was completed an unknown time before 2.45 am?

Now... I could be wrong, but on most days 11pm is before 2.45 am...

Tomtomkent, the page clearly says that no reconstruction work had been started on Kennedy by 2:45 AM.

Things could have happened at the autopsy that the FBI agents weren't there to see.

 

[Stamuel]

Tomtomkent, the page clearly says that no reconstruction work had been started on Kennedy by 2:45 AM.

Things could have happened at the autopsy that the FBI agents weren't there to see.

In the document you posted, it does not say that at all. The relevant passage is here:

At approximately 2:45 a.m., November 23, I was requested by ASAIC Kellerman to come to the morgue to once again view the body. When I arrived the autopsy had been completed and ASAIC Kellerman, SA Greer, General McHugh and I viewed the wounds. I observed a wound about six inches down from the neckline on the back just to the right to the spinal column. I observed another wound on the right rear portion of the skull. Attendants of the Joseph Gawler Mortuary were at this time preparing the body for placement in the casket. A new casket had been obtained from Gawler Mortuary in which the body was to be placed.

Assuming everything in his statement is correct, this only tells us that (1) the autopsy ended before approximately 2:45 a.m. and (2) at the time Hill observed the wounds, the Gawler Mortuary attendants were in the process of preparing the body, without any indication of when they had begun to do so.

The most straightforward interpretation of the statement is that the Gawler Mortuary attendants had started preparing the body an unspecified time before Clinton Hill arrived, and he viewed the wounds while they were continuing the preparations. Of course, it might not have happened that way, but this is the plain meaning of his words taken at face value. Clinton Hill's statement does not support your conclusion.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Tomtomkent, the page clearly says that no reconstruction work had been started on Kennedy by 2:45 AM.

Things could have happened at the autopsy that the FBI agents weren't there to see.

Or it could be that beautifying a body for display through reconstruction is not the remit of the autopsy surgeons.

It could be that the autopsy finished when the documentary evidence suggests, and you are now plucking at unrelated events to try and retrofit your theory into facts that do not support it.

 

[abaddon]

Tomtomkent, the page clearly says that no reconstruction work had been started on Kennedy by 2:45 AM.

It doesn't. According to that statement Hill was ready to take the casket by 3:10 a.m.

We know from Lipsey that the embalming took from 3-4 hours. (I know this to be true from experience. In my long dead fathers case, under 2).

This is consistent with with the autopsy completing between 11 p.m. and midnight.

We know that the casket arrived at 2 a.m. Again consistent since placement in the casket is at the end of the embalming process.

So where is the problem?

Things could have happened at the autopsy that the FBI agents weren't there to see.

God of the gaps is all you have?

 

[Axxman300]

To recap:

MJ posts Hill's report wherein he details a GSW to the back and a single GSW to the back of the head. The body left the hospital at 3:56 a.m., meaning that even if the autopsy ended at midnight there was almost four hours for the morticians to process the body.

Somehow this is mysterious.

 

[MicahJava]

Previous comment of mine nobody noticed:

I am trying to solve the mystery of who exactly delivered the new Mahogany casket to the morgue, there are conflicting accounts since probably nobody thought it would be important information.

But in the meantime, check out Roy Kellerman's Warren Commission timeline of events between the end of the autopsy and the beginning of the morticians work:

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent from the room of the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and brought him down and he inspected the incisions.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the unfortunate happenings it would be a little better.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a recollection?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of hours that they worked on them.

...

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted when you testified this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption on time; I think I can pin it pretty well.

Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30, they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand that they worked on the autopsy angle 4 1/2, 5 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel were preparing the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30.

And also, I found this obscure newspaper article which may feature an important hint on the timeline. I don't have a subscription to newspapers.com, so I can't post a scan, only copy&paste from the OCR text recognition.

It was near 1 A.M. Saturday when Roy Kellerman phoned Clint Hill with the Kennedy group on the seventeenth floor at Bethesda Naval Hospital. "Come on down," he said. "I want you to look at these wounds." The mortuary team from Gawler's funeral home had arrived to embalm the body; the autopsy had been finished. The four men from Gawler's were efficient, but this time it was difficult to keep their hands from trembling. All of the four had lived in and around the capital with this charmer, this buoyant President. Roy Kellerrnan walked over and whispered: "How long?" The answer, whispered, was "Not long." Kellerman asked again: "How long?" An embalmer looked at his wristwatch. "An hour," he said. "An hour and fifteen minutes." Kellerman phoned Clint Hill on the seventeenth floor. "Tell the Attorney General we leave about 3:45," he said. "Tell the White House too."


https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/43091342/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/48845840/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/44889385/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/30159281/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/21838299/, https://www.newspapers.com/newspage/87663892/