Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny

[Distracted1]

Not all sexual assault is a crime.

It isn't the pressure that is the issue. It is the forcing the tongue into her mouth that is the problem. If that happened to my kid in a drama class or a coworker in a winter party play rehearsal, I would be livid.

Oddly,I was thinking about wether or not the described behavior (if it happened in the context described) would infuriate me had it happened to a woman I love.

Honestly, I don't think it would.
I have a sister who once had theatrical aspirations. She and I are close enough in age that I had occasionally been invited into her circle, and met people who participate in that kind of creative endeavor. I found them to be extremely fun, yet very harsh to my sensibilities. I found that certain behaviors which I would not accept from near strangers in any other context seemed perfectly harmless in that context.

Further, it does not seem to me that the victim of thie unwanted kiss was all that troubled by it either. Her description seems to focus more on how she found Frankenstein "gross", and his lips "slimy" than about how she might have felt violated.

Just my take.

 

[BobTheCoward]

Further, it does not seem to me that the victim of thie unwanted kiss was all that troubled by it either. Her description seems to focus more on how she found Frankenstein "gross", and his lips "slimy" than about how she might have felt violated.

Just my take.

I don't care what she thinks.

 

[Belz...]

What? Given that in the worst light, he may very well be touching her breasts in that picture, then yes it could be sexual assault.

That's what I said. To me it doesn't appear like he's touching her, but if he is, then I agree with you (the "worst light").

I don't see a likely context in which it wouldn't be.

Off the top of my head, for example: if she wasn't sleeping and was actually in on the joke at the time. (Entirely hypothetically, of course.)

 

[d4m10n]

Can you agree that pretended assault is not as bad as assault?

Not necessarily, no.

Tbe crux of the tort of assault is a reasonable apprehension of an immediate harmful or offensive contact. That is an unpleasant state of mind, of course, but then "it's obvious how Leeann would feel violated" by a photograph staging an assault upon her by someone she had trusted. Either way, we are talking about wilfully making people feel vulnerable and at risk.

 

[Distracted1]

Not necessarily, no.

Tbe crux of the tort of assault is a reasonable apprehension of an immediate harmful or offensive contact. That is an unpleasant state of mind, of course, but then "it's obvious how Leeann would feel violated" by a photograph staging an assault upon her by someone she had trusted. Either way, we are talking about wilfully making people feel vulnerable and at risk.

if it is assault, has the photographer also committed a crime?

 

[Oystein]

Not necessarily, no.

Tbe crux of the tort of assault is a reasonable apprehension of an immediate harmful or offensive contact. That is an unpleasant state of mind, of course, but then "it's obvious how Leeann would feel violated" by a photograph staging an assault upon her by someone she had trusted. Either way, we are talking about wilfully making people feel vulnerable and at risk.

If you go by that definition, then there was no assault, only pretended assault, for Tweeden was asleep and thus could not have had an apprehension of immediate physical contact.

And there is then thus a clear, objective difference between pretended and actual assault.

 

[d4m10n]

If you go by that definition, then there was no assault, only pretended assault, for Tweeden was asleep and thus could not have had an apprehension of immediate physical contact.

And there is then thus a clear, objective difference between pretended and actual assault.

I never denied there is a meaningful difference. Either way, though, Leeann would feel violated.

 

[varwoche]

Liberals and Conservatives have one thing in common:Hypocrisy.

Apparently the spectacularly broad brush you're painting with is based on the words of one or two posters on an Internet forum.

Can you cite any name brand Democrats who have demonstrated hypocrisy concerning Franken?

 

[The Big Dog]

No, I am actually saying SG communicated her thoughts so well that I am strongly inclined to assume TBS's continued misconstrual reveals a serious problem about him.

Bwhahah!! I have a serious problem because I have the temerity to disagree with you?

Posting her pictures and making a point was and is aggressive slut shaming and the pretense that she is arguing is tissue thin nonsense.

Any questions?

 

[Oystein]

I never denied there is a meaningful difference. Either way, though, Leeann would feel violated.

Well, yes, and rightly so - as long as you avoid equivocation. After all, she could feel justifiably violated if made to listen to a tasteless sexist joke, and if subjected to brutal rape.

Weren't we on the topic whether there is / ought to be a scale?

 

[The Big Dog]

By the way, Donald Trump absolutely drunked on Al Franken this morning.

 

[PhantomWolf]

I completely disagree with all of this!

I suspect from your previous postings that you are merely trying to stir the pot actually.

That man is treated as a doll or a canvas

I seriously doubt that anyone is thinking "This guy is a great canvas" when drawing a moustache, whereas I bet nearly anyone that dake gropes is thinking something the equivalent to "Nice rack!"

and made to sport a painted moustache against his will

because there is no difference between being forced to take part in a physical activity you don't want to do, and to have something you don't want sit on your skin passively and do nothing else to you or make you take any action.

as the prankster abused a temporary, possibly permanent, power differential with a view to embarrassing the victim.

On this basis then all pranks should be banned because all pranksters hold some form of power differential with a view to embarrassing the person pranked. No?

Prankster invaded private space in the process.

You have no right to a private space.

You place entirely too little weight on the non-sexual parts of ones privacy and dignity.

An I believe that to stir the pot you are placing far too much importance on them

 

[Oystein]

Bwhahah!! I have a serious problem because I have the temerity to disagree with you?

Posting her pictures and making a point was and is aggressive slut shaming and the pretense that she is arguing is tissue thin nonsense.

Any questions?

Yes. Who said or implied sexy photos are slutty? SG didn't, I didn't. Who did?

 

[d4m10n]

Weren't we on the topic whether there is / ought to be a scale?

If you want to say she should feel more violated by an actual groping while awake than a pretend groping while asleep, you are free to do so. I'm not going to follow you down that path.

 

[PhantomWolf]

By the way, Donald Trump absolutely drunked on Al Franken this morning.

Of course he did, Mister "Grab them by the Pussy" had no understanding of irony or embarrassment.

 

[Oystein]

I suspect from your previous postings that you are merely trying to stir the pot actually.

You are simply wrong on that. I really think you totally miss the problem that hazing is.

I seriously doubt that anyone is thinking "This guy is a great canvas" when drawing a moustache, whereas I bet nearly anyone that dake gropes is thinking something the equivalent to "Nice rack!"

Both think "great, (s)he's passed out, I can abuse that vulnerabiluty and exert control and inflict embarrassment", and that abusive control is the core of the crime.

because there is no difference between being forced to take part in a physical activity you don't want to do, and to have something you don't want sit on your skin passively and do nothing else to you or make you take any action.

Can you clarify if you are being sarcastic here? Because I think a. that Tweeden isn't being forced to take part in a physical activity, as she clearly remains passive, and b. yes, I do think there is hardly a difference between pretended groping and actual moustache painting.

On this basis then all pranks should be banned because all pranksters hold some form of power differential with a view to embarrassing the person pranked. No?

Yes, I agree that many pranks are better left undone - unless you have been able to verify through previous communicatiobs that the prankstee is cool with it.

You have no right to a private space.

Again, can you please verify that this is sarcasm? For I think it is utterly obvious that everybody has a right to privacy - all ideas of sexual decency rest on that idea, and more ideas do.

An I believe that to stir the pot you are placing far too much importance on them

Stirring the pot is your idea at this point.

 

[The Big Dog]

Yes. Who said or implied sexy photos are slutty? SG didn't, I didn't. Who did?

Thank you for responding despite my "problem" the entire tactic is known as "slut shaming" and it has been defined repeatedly in this thread and includes like posting pictures of the accuser in bikinis despite being completely irrelevant to the discussion.

That is known as slut shaming.

Thanks for putting up with my problem.

 

[Oystein]

If you want to say she should feel more violated by an actual groping while awake than a pretend groping while asleep, you are free to do so. I'm not going to follow you down that path.

It's good you placed an "if" there, or else this would be a strawman.

I never said or implied her state of consciousness plays no role. It obviously is a confounding factor. Actually groping a sleeping woman is worse than pretending to. Actually groping an awake woman is worse than pretending to (just as battery is worse than assault). Pretending to grope a sleeping woman (and recording it so she knows) is worse than pretending to grope an awake women.
Are we on the same page now?

 

[angrysoba]

That's what I said. To me it doesn't appear like he's touching her, but if he is, then I agree with you (the "worst light").



Off the top of my head, for example: if she wasn't sleeping and was actually in on the joke at the time. (Entirely hypothetically, of course.)

I think this only amounts to the idea that it is possible he wasn't groping her against her will (i.e sexual assault), rather than "that picture even in the worse light cannot be considered sexual assault".

I think that if the Dems and Al Franken want to be taken seriously on the subject, Franken should just step down. And this would also make their position stronger when they go after other, more egregious, examples of sexual assault such as those that take place at FOX News and Roy Moore and their enablers such as the despicable Sean Hannity.

 

[Oystein]

Thank you for responding despite my "problem" the entire tactic is known as "slut shaming" and it has been defined repeatedly in this thread and includes like posting pictures of the accuser in bikinis despite being completely irrelevant to the discussion.

That is known as slut shaming.

Thanks for putting up with my problem.

Except it wasn't irrelevant to the discussion. I see you repeated an invented definition of "slut shaming", but it neither actually applies to what SG posted, nor is there any need for us to accept it.

If anything, SG engaged in male bashing as she implies that men would be significanrly more likely to harrass or assault women who are known for a sexy public image - an assertion of fact not supported by evidence.