"nobody seems bothered by it" have you never read about the problems with hazing in the military?
Senator Al Franken Kissed and Groped Me Without My Consent, And There’s Nothing Funny
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Sexual assault is a terrible thing, that picture even in the worse light cannot be considered sexual assault. It is wrong to equate the two and I think doing so makes it much harder to deal with the actual issue of sexual assault.
uke2se
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While it's clear to me that this is brought out in order to mitigate the Moore-disaster, and it might well be exaggerated, the optics of it are very bad for Franken. There should be some form of censure (very public) awaiting the ethics investigation, and if that shows that what he did could be considered unethical or even illegal, he should resign or be kicked out.
Democrats need to own this issue and show that there's nothing partisan about combating sexual assault.
Democrats need to own this issue and show that there's nothing partisan about combating sexual assault.
PhantomWolf
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You should perhaps read what I wrote in context. There in nothing wrong with pranks and jokes, until they stop being pranks and jokes and become sexual assault and harassment. The problem is that they do and people still write them off as "Just a prank." (yes I know this is from Italy and men are even worse there, but it gets the point across.) My point is not that jokes and pranks are bad, my point is that when it's moved into the realms of bullying, harassment and assault we need to be calling it what it is and not just saying, "awww, it was just a joke why are you upset?"
But calling the bad behaviours that really are sexual assaults just pranks, we allow sexual assaults and harassment to be acceptable, whether it's grabbing a woman's breasts or anyone's butt, or poking a classmate in the butt with a broom handle. It's not acceptable behaviour and we need to stop justifying it and giving those that do it a pass.
PhantomWolf
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No not at all, but if you can't interact with other people without pretending to or actually squeezing a woman's breasts, then you're doing it wrong.
We can have bonding and interactions with each other without taking advantage of each other in a non-consensual and sexual manner.
It's really simply, if you want to touch or even pretend to touch, someone in a sexual manner, then ask their permission first before doing it. If they say no, don't do it. And especially don't do it without permission and then just claim it was a prank or a joke.
PhantomWolf
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Sexual Assault comes in many forms. Pinching an girl on the butt without permission is Sexual Assault, so is Rape. In the worst light, this picture would be Sexual Assault because it'd be a grope, but since he's not touching her, it's not.
That doesn't make it right though, it still reduces her to a pair of breasts that are there just for these men's entertainment as their playthings. It is treating her as a object, not as a person, and that is the essence of what makes Sexual Harassment and Assault so bad, it devalues the person that is victimised by it and discounts their humanity.
It's clear that he thought it was a joke and a prank, but it's not, it's turning her into his toy to be played with, a thing for his entertainment, and that is why it is so wrong.
d4m10n
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Who’s equating the two? I'm pointing about two very different messages from the same source.
I do get your point but I think the grey area varies enormously depending on the context, situation.
Of course we can. And I don't think anyone is saying we can't?
This is where I think there is a difference between us. I think in certain situations the consent can be implied and this is the area where a lot of miscommunication happens and (raised this in another of these threads) because we have a problem in our culture with accepting sex as just another human behaviour it can rapidly lead to a lot of unnecessary embarrassment and even fear.
We should be able to simply shrug off and accept miscommunication will happen in regards to sexual relationships.
(And before people try to build straw pyramids I am of course not using "miscommunication" to mean anything like rape, sexual assault and harassment etc.)
I am sure he has said many different messages - why did you pick those two examples of different messages?
applecorped
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Remember men, consent can be implied, even when the woman is asleep
That seems a bit strange - the worse light in this picture is what he actually did which was not sexual assault.
(I'm finding this interesting so I'm not trying to construct any kind of "gotcha", genuinely want to have a discussion.)
What would your reaction have been of he had say drawn a moustache on her (using this as a slightly less extreme example of something people mentioned earlier)?
What would your reaction have been if it was a bloke he was pretending to reach for?
Remember men, consent can be implied, even when the woman is asleep
indeed.......(And before people try to build straw pyramids I am of course not using "miscommunication" to mean anything like rape, sexual assault and harassment etc.)....
d4m10n
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PhantomWolf
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There really isn't a lot of gray area in this, if you are unsure, then you ask and make sure you have a clear answer. You don't just assume.
The thing is that when it comes to things of a sexual nature, heck I'd just say of touching another person, make sure that there is no miscommunications about it. Yes I can understand that it can be embarrassing asking, but it's better to get a little embarrassed than to end up sexually assaulting someone because you got your communications mixed up and you thought she wanted you to kiss her and feel her up but really she had gas.
Miscommunications can be avoided by opening your mouth and speaking.
However at the end of the day thins isn't what was being discussed anyways. What was being talked about was where jokes and pranks cross an inappropriate and non-consensual touching line.
d4m10n
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One of them says sexual assault is a serious problem which needs to be fixed.
The other says it's fun to pretend to sexually assault someone without their consent.
You really don't see the incongruity here?
PhantomWolf
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The worst light is that it was a picture of him actually in the action of groping her. Groping is a form of sexual assault.
Appreciated, though I do try and remain pretty consistent if I can.
As I noted at the time it was mentioned, since it's not demeaning sexually, I'd have less of an issue with it. Drawing a mustache on her is not devaluing her to being a body part to be used for men's entertainment. I do think that we have to be careful with it comes to touching other people without permission, especially strangers, but of it was a prank between friends then I'd be a lot more okay with it. Drawing a penis though I'd object too as again it's sexualising the person.
Depends. If it was the same place he was reaching for, then we don't really sexualise the male chest, so it has different connotations that reaching for a woman's breasts. If he has been reaching for the guy'd crotch then I'd say that was as inappropriate as reaching for a woman's breasts or groin because those are parts that we sexualise, and it's that sexualisation that objectifies the person and makes it wrong.
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Example: You've been dancing together in a nightclub, you've got very close, smooched a bit, they've had their head on your shoulder, you look at them and in the moment go to kiss the other person.
I really don't think in such circumstances there is any fault by the kisser, if the other person pulls away, gives you a what-the-heck etc. it should be a simply "Sorry, lets carry on dancing". It is not a sexual assault.
This is definitely a difference between us, I would not say that any kind of sexual assault has occurred and I think re-casting such human behaviour in such terms would be terrible way for society to go.
As a sort of general disclaimer. I hate being touched unexpectedly, I hate people putting a hand on my shoulder saying "hello mate", any kind of unexpected touch I find distressing. However all I do in those circumstances I either ignore it or ask them not to do that again. I do not feel as if I would be right to call those unexpected touches assault of any kind, they are part of the usual social human behaviours. Now if someone repeatedly touched me - no matter how slight or innocuous after I've asked them not to then it moves into potential harassment and perhaps even assault.
Of course, but even that isn't foolproof and people will still mistake what each other is saying.
But I think it is all part and parcel of the general discussion, how we communicate to one another is all part and parcel of deciding where we draw lines and create boundaries. I am just cautious about the "sex" aspect that tends to dominate these discussions and we end up escalating the matter by thinking just because there is a sexual element in a human interaction it is always bad without a formal, notarized agreement between two people (yeah I am being silly with the last bit but I hope you get what I mean).
Belz...
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+1.
Depending on how he used the picture, it could be harassment, but judging by just the picture it's not assault.
However, it's pretty stupid for a senator to engage in something like this, and such behaviour should be strongly discouraged.
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And different contexts and situations don't make a difference to you?