Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[HSienzant]

When a bullet encounters a curved portion of the skull, it is likely to deflect. A bullet could have entered near the EOP, and barely missed the cerebellum while deflecting downward and smashing the base of the skull.

Yet you were strangely dismissive of this precise explanation by Lattimer when he suggested the bullet could strike the EOP and deflect upwards.

Let's assume Lattimer admitted that the wound was in the EOP. Your own cited conspiracy theorist says Lattimer conceded an entry wound at the EOP and a curved track from entry to exit in the head would account for the wounds as we know them:

On March 24, 2004, Lattimer wrote Canal: “It does seem to me that you and your colleagues have made great progress in investigating these points, and the curved track in the brain is not only reasonable but is probably demonstrable.”

If you wanted to believe that a single round entered the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head, I would suggest going the X-ray alteration/substitute brain route.

How come a deflection is possible downward when you need it but impossible to deflect upwards or to either side?

I asked you this multiple times before. You ignored it ever time.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

In usual cases in which the skull is not shattered by a gunshot wound, the top of the skull is obviously separated from the scalp. In this case, you would also want to still separate the shards of skull bone from the scalp to avoid damaging the brain. Surgical procedures are based on what works the most.

You are not a Pathologist, so you are in no way qualified to comment on what is normal in an Autopsy of this type.

You were not there, or even born in 1963, and this has left you with a huge gap in historical context on every level, and it shows in every post.

Humes said the brain was removed via the standard method, with care taken in the area of the skull that was shattered.

Furthermore, the autopsy doctors described the scalp as "loose" when the body was being handled, and that pieces of skull would separate from the scalp and fall into the skull cavity.

Yes, that's what a 6.5x52mm round does to the human head. Your point?

And the skull photographs show no loose pieces of skull bone stuck to the scalp.

You have not seen all of them so you don't know what they show.

Reconstruction for mortuary reasons, but there is no evidence or reason to think that the doctors let pieces of loose skull bone stick to the scalp upon reflection.

Doesn't matter either way.

 

[Axxman300]

Dave, you have this strange idea that the EOP-throat connection literally requires a 45-degree angled shot. Wrong. When a bullet encounters a curved portion of the skull, it is likely to deflect. A bullet could have entered near the EOP, and barely missed the cerebellum while deflecting downward and smashing the base of the skull.

1. Deflection, if it happens at all, depends upon the caliber, grain load, and range. A subsonic round will be limited to .22, 9mm or .45 (based on known suppressed weapons in 1963). None of them fired from any of the possible ranges would have enough energy to pass through 2 sections of skull.

2. The path you describe is physically and medically impossible in a human being.

3. There is no evidence of such a shot being attempted let alone executed during the assassination.

 

[Axxman300]

FALSE!

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dHWHkn9eQVM/TyOZrvTut5I/AAAAAAAAEKs/sKrb-H5SKM0/s320/JFK_Autopsy_Photo.jpg

Photo of the empty skull with a flap of skull bone stuck to the scalp. This flap is above and forward of the right ear and is also visible in the Zapruder film.

How can you be so wrong so often?

Hank

And the scalp is being pulled into place...and over by the doctor's knuckle you can see evidence of the skull being sawed open. The contrast on this photo washes it out, but if you hunt down the B&W version it is visible. Plus I don't think that's his right ear, that looks like another fragment.

 

[Dave Rogers]

In usual cases in which the skull is not shattered by a gunshot wound, the top of the skull is obviously separated from the scalp. In this case, you would also want to still separate the shards of skull bone from the scalp to avoid damaging the brain. Surgical procedures are based on what works the most.

You must have misread my post. I asked you to provide a cite for the unsupported statement you'd just made, not for a whole load more unsupported opinions as to how you personally think autopsies should be conducted. Your opinion does not validate your opinion.

Dave, you have this strange idea that the EOP-throat connection literally requires a 45-degree angled shot. Wrong. When a bullet encounters a curved portion of the skull, it is likely to deflect. A bullet could have entered near the EOP, and barely missed the cerebellum while deflecting downward and smashing the base of the skull.

Or, indeed, entered slightly above and to the right of the EOP and missed the cerebellum while smashing out the top right of the skull, while deflecting very much less. Which is, in fact, what the autopsy findings state, as opposed to your personal fantasy, which is not in fact supported by any of the evidence, however much you may pretend that it is.

Dave

 

[Tomtomkent]

At what angle could a bullet either pass through the EOP, or deflect after the EOP so that it exited through the base of the skull, exiting the throat, without passing through the cerebellum or brain stem, and without causing any trauma radiating from it’s path that damaged the lower regions of the brain?

 

[MicahJava]

At what angle could a bullet either pass through the EOP, or deflect after the EOP so that it exited through the base of the skull, exiting the throat, without passing through the cerebellum or brain stem, and without causing any trauma radiating from it’s path that damaged the lower regions of the brain?

This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted. If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head.

 

[HSienzant]

At what angle could a bullet either pass through the EOP, or deflect after the EOP so that it exited through the base of the skull, exiting the throat, without passing through the cerebellum or brain stem, and without causing any trauma radiating from it’s path that damaged the lower regions of the brain?

This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted. If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head.

Not an answer. You were asked for the specific angle, or the range of angle for this to be accomplished. You provided nothing of note. What you said was meaningless. Let's examine it:

"This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted."

Okay, this should be followed by your explanation of where the shooter was, the angle JFK's head was tilted, what ammunition was used and why, from what distances, and your explication of how the tests you supervised or conducted determined how the bullet would deflect. You should also work backward from the wounds you argue for and extend the line backward to the appropriate location for the shooter, and then provide the eyewitness testimony and hard evidence putting a shooter in that location. Diagrams of all this would be useful. Somehow you left all the important information out.

"If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head."

The EOP would be at the base of the head regardless of how a head is tilted, wouldn't it? You're not saying much here, except you apparently agree with your argument. It would be a surprise if you didn't. However, your opinion of your argument, like your argument itself, actually doesn't stand on its own.

You need to cite actual evidence for it. And by actual evidence, please note, I don't mean some more repetitions of your opinion of what various experts meant in their testimony. That is still just your opinion.

So do try again, or pretend your point is established.

I think everyone here knows exactly what will happen next.

Hank

 

[Tomtomkent]

This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted. If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head.

I'm sure you can talk about it depending on all kinds of things, but what that does not describe is the angle that allows a bullet to get from the occipital region of the brain, to the throat, without it, or the matter displaced by trauma as the bullet moves through a fluid medium like brain tissue, disrupting the parts of the brain, that you have stated were untouched.

You claim to have a certain entry point on the EOP.
We have a known exit point, a set distance down the throat.
We know there are only so many places a bullet could go after leaving JFK's throat, and those leave limited possibilities.
You are further saying that the force of entry was enough to cause a deflection downwards, which you seem to state without understanding the further damage such forces would make, to the body, to the brain, and to the bullet.

Care to try again?

 

[BStrong]

I see, the usual bait-and-switch where you answer a different question to the one that was asked. You commented on "the normal, proper way to remove a brain" in support of your opinion on the unrecorded details of what happened in the autopsy, and now you're completing the circle by citing the autopsy. Where is your source for your claim that "the normal, proper way to remove a brain" is what you say it is? Or are you simply making up some technical knowledge you don't possess and hoping you'll get away with it?

And, incidentally, we know that the skull was shattered, that a lateral incision in the scalp was made, that the scalp was reflected (i.e. broken parts of skull were folded back) in order to remove the brain, and that therefore the brain was not removed through a hole equal in size to the parts of the skull that had actually been separated by the exit wound, but through one that could easily be changed in size and shape due to the pliability of the scalp, which was the only thing holding the pieces together. We also know that no "reconstruction" would be needed after removal, because the pieces would simply fold back into something fairly close to their original positions. And this is a simple, parsimonious explanation based on the available knowledge, rather than one that requires a bullet that can pass through the cerebellum without damaging it fired from a position that nobody could possibly have been in.

Dave

The definition of insanity and all that.

In both this thread and the 9/11 thread they simply make it up as they go along and do exactly what you articulate in the bolded.

The insanity part comes in not because of their failures, but because whether or not they want to acknowledge the fact, they must know that there are posters on this site that possess professional expertise in the subjects under discussion or have taken it upon themselves to study the material in detail - MJ has an opinion and not much of anything organic to their professional training or study (anything other than some other CTist's jive) to rely on in these discussions. They throw out words or terms or semi-technical descriptions with -0- actual understanding of what they are posting.

This current pin-the-headwound nonsense has been going on for at least the last two years and they're still flailing away with a few side-tracks into some CTist ballistics/firearms fact-free fantasies.

 

[bknight]

This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted. If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head.

In addition to what Hank and Tom have added, JFK shows no sign of stress from 190 until he disappears behind the sing~200. But shows lot of stress when he emerges from behind the sign at 224.
Can't you view the Zapruder film objectively?

 

[Axxman300]

This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted.

It only works if Kennedy's brain was not in his head at the time of the shooting, but whatever.

Plus it's too much to ask of a subsonic round at the minimum possible range needed to pull this off.

 

[RoboTimbo]

This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted. If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head.

Go back and answer all the questions asked, MicahJava. One would think your job is running away.

 

[HSienzant]

Go back and answer all the questions asked, MicahJava. One would think your job is running away.

His day job is jumping to conclusions.

Running away is what he does for fun.

Hank

 

[BStrong]

His day job is jumping to conclusions.

Running away is what he does for fun.

Hank

One thing is for sure, he isn't a goaltender. A goal mover by instinct, but never a tender.

 

[BStrong]

Go back and answer all the questions asked, MicahJava. One would think your job is running away.

Might as well ask Jesus when he's coming back.

 

[RoboTimbo]

One thing is for sure, he isn't a goaltender. A goal mover by instinct, but never a tender.

He could be a nail, he's getting hammered so much.

 

[Axxman300]

Side note: I watched "Jackie" the other day. My crush on Natalie Portman aside it is an excellent movie framed against the aftermath of the assassination.

It is relevant to this subject because the movie illustrates how the First Lady is the 500-pound gorilla behind much of what was done in the hours and days after the assassination (having the body flown back to DC immediately, making sure JFK was interred in three days setting up a countdown for the autopsy).

It is a beautiful movie in many ways, but the assassination is depicted in all of its blood and gore - accurately. I can say I would not have held it together like she did.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Not an answer. You were asked for the specific angle, or the range of angle for this to be accomplished. You provided nothing of note. What you said was meaningless. Let's examine it:

"This not only depends on the angle of the shot, but how Kennedy's head was tilted."

Okay, this should be followed by your explanation of where the shooter was, the angle JFK's head was tilted, what ammunition was used and why, from what distances, and your explication of how the tests you supervised or conducted determined how the bullet would deflect. You should also work backward from the wounds you argue for and extend the line backward to the appropriate location for the shooter, and then provide the eyewitness testimony and hard evidence putting a shooter in that location. Diagrams of all this would be useful. Somehow you left all the important information out.

"If I do say so myself, Kennedy's head is postured pretty well at z190-224 with the EOP at the base of the head."

The EOP would be at the base of the head regardless of how a head is tilted, wouldn't it? You're not saying much here, except you apparently agree with your argument. It would be a surprise if you didn't. However, your opinion of your argument, like your argument itself, actually doesn't stand on its own.

You need to cite actual evidence for it. And by actual evidence, please note, I don't mean some more repetitions of your opinion of what various experts meant in their testimony. That is still just your opinion.

So do try again, or pretend your point is established.

I think everyone here knows exactly what will happen next.

Hank

This should have been done a long, long time ago, MicahJava.
You say you have all the evidence you need to prove a conspiracy. You are also claiming the expertise necessary to question the accepted historical narrative. Fine, Then do it. Answer these questions, lay out your case: establish where you think the second shooter was, and provide the evidence and calculations to back it up.
I can't speak for anyone else, but I am certainly open-minded enough to examine this with interest. I am ready to be convinced. Go for it.

 

[Wolrab]

Come on people. He did spend a day looking at you tube videos on ballistics (IIRC, that was a while age and we all know, except MJ, how friable memory is). If that don't make him an expert, I don't know what will......except maybe real education and experience.