The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 26

[bagels]

Oh dear some terrible, sloppy spelling.

Preston, Douglas and Marriott et al are arguing exactly that.

The PIP position isn't really based on an argument or an interpretation. It's just taking the prosecution's points and pointing them out to people so they can see it as self evidently garbage.

Like, I literally want you to spread the word that Amanda Knox was thrown in jail because her DNA was found in her own sink, or to post the picture of Rudy's Nike prints and remind everyone the prosecution claimed they were Amanda's. Most of your posts are a good PIP PR machine.

You guys never got it. The Massei report is the PIP's case.

 

[acbytesla]

I doubt it.

Not a surprise. Some are slow witted.

 

[abaddon]

What does 'satanic' mean, anyway? I am reliably informed from the WM3 thread that Aleister Crowley - one of the most notorious 'masters of the dark arts' - is not a satanist, but....wait for it...a 'ceremonial magician'.

So by that measure, satanists do not exist.

The famed "satanic panic" zoomed over your head?

 

[Vixen]

The famed "satanic panic" zoomed over your head?

Few satanists, it seems, even believe in Satan, from the wiki article, above, most 'followers' of the occult just see it as the reverse of repression of carnal desires, greed and licentiousness.

The comment that the original meaning of Satan in the Bible was as, 'adversary', is a neat explanation when juxtaposed against the Christian translation of Christ the Messiah as 'advocate' (or lawyer).

So, some will have Christ as their advocate and others want to be the accuser.

Fits in with Luther's belief that all men ride the beast of either Good (Christ) or Evil (the Wicked One [as he calls him]).

Given the Monster of Florence serial killings and the Kercher murder were acts of wanton depravity by degenerates, you can't blame a Roman Catholic prosecutor in the world's #1 Catholic country seeing it as the antithesis of what decent Italians believe in.

(As for the 'Antichrist' mentioned in Revelation, my pastor let slip he thought it referred to the Pope.)

 

[TruthCalls]

Oh dear some terrible, sloppy spelling.

Preston, Douglas and Marriott et al are arguing exactly that.

If you think that then you aren't reading/listening to what they've argued.

It's entirely proper to point out that Mignini is a balding, portly Italian who has a thing for conspiracy theories involving Satanic sects (he does) and how this was the basis for his theory on the Kercher murder (it was). Once he had his theory, he then started to interpret things accordingly.

But this just explains why he saw things the way he did, and certainly, to some extent it explains why he believes much of what he considers evidence. Mignini is no more immune from confirmation bias than anyone else. But Preston, Douglas, Marriott, Gil, Hampikian, Moore, Henry, etc., etc., all argue innocence by attacking the evidence using facts/forensics/science/logic/investigative experience, and not because Mignini is into Satanic sect conspiracies.

 

[TruthCalls]

Few satanists, it seems, even believe in Satan, from the wiki article, above, most 'followers' of the occult just see it as the reverse of repression of carnal desires, greed and licentiousness.

The comment that the original meaning of Satan in the Bible was as, 'adversary', is a neat explanation when juxtaposed against the Christian translation of Christ the Messiah as 'advocate' (or lawyer).

So, some will have Christ as their advocate and others want to be the accuser.

Fits in with Luther's belief that all men ride the beast of either Good (Christ) or Evil (the Wicked One [as he calls him]).

Given the Monster of Florence serial killings and the Kercher murder were acts of wanton depravity by degenerates, you can't blame a Roman Catholic prosecutor in the world's #1 Catholic country seeing it as the antithesis of what decent Italians believe in.

(As for the 'Antichrist' mentioned in Revelation, my pastor let slip he thought it referred to the Pope.)

It doesn't matter whether Mignini actually believes in Satan. He believed the murder was ritualistic and was supposed to happen on Halloween but was delayed 24 hours due to a dinner party. He then composed an entire theory around this. There is nothing more to discuss on this point.

Given the Monster of Florence serial killings and the Kercher murder were acts of wanton depravity by degenerates, you can't blame a Roman Catholic prosecutor in the world's #1 Catholic country seeing it as the antithesis of what decent Italians believe in.

There is no comparison between the MoF murders and the Kercher murder. The Kercher murder is consistent with millions of murders that occur around the world on a daily basis. It was bloody and it was violent, but there was no reason to think it was anything more than a single act performed by a single attacker. There was absolutely no basis for connecting it to some Satanic, ritualistic murder. That was all in Mignini's head.

 

[Stacyhs]

What does Aleister Crowley have to do with Mignini and what he said in court in 2008? Or that Mignini believed that women were being murdered for their body parts to be used in satanic rites? Hint: absolutely nothing.

It's a good a guess as any for a senseless crime.

In Italy, prosecutors are obliged to construct a possible motive for the crime.

What's evident is that you could not give a sensible answer so you responded with this nonsense. Sometimes it's better not to answer at all.

A possible motive should be something for which there is actual evidence, not something fantastical pulled out of a prosecutor's overactive imagination.

 

[Stacyhs]

Wow, that's some terrible, sensationalist writing (complete with several sloppy syntax and punctuation errors in that short except alone; indicative of an uneducated writer and/or a similarly uneducated "editor" of his "book"). But nice touch to put the title of the "book" as a link to the Amazon website where said "book" can be purchased.......

To take a cursory look at the actual content of this excerpt from the "book", one piece caught my eye as a prime example of the combined lack of intellectual honesty (indeed, apparently the lack of any intellectual rigour whatsoever), the inherent bias, and the sensationalist tone of our "author":


The Prosecutor of Perugia is a balding, portly Italian who has a thing for conspiracy theories involving Satanic sects. (NB: this is vdL quoting Preston)

That says it all, doesn’t it? Knox is innocent because the prosecutor is a screwed up *******, seems to be the gist of the argument. Forget the evidence against Knox, who even knows why there was a trial, the prosecutor is the real scumbag here.


Now, it appears here that our "author" van der Leek cannot understand causation and correlation. Nowhere is Preston stating or implying that it's because Mignini is "screwed up" that Knox is "innocent". Nor is Preston stating or implying that one should "forget the evidence against Knox" etc. This is writing and opinionating that would struggle to even qualify as tabloid trash. And the rest of the excerpt is in similar vein. Dreadfully poor, and patently unobjective.

Oh dear some terrible, sloppy spelling.

Preston, Douglas and Marriott et al are arguing exactly that.

Are you seriously comparing a single typo to a large excerpt out of a published book which had the services of an ...ahem...editor? An editor whose job it was to catch such sloppy syntax and punctuation errors? And this from someone who has had several such typos herself including on this very page? Or is "as" always spelled "a" as in your post #3798? This sentence of yours wouldn't escape a high school teacher's red pen:

Few satanists, it seems, even believe in Satan, from the wiki article, above, most 'followers' of the occult just see it as the reverse of repression of carnal desires, greed and licentiousness.

 

[Bill Williams]

It doesn't matter whether Mignini actually believes in Satan. He believed the murder was ritualistic and was supposed to happen on Halloween but was delayed 24 hours due to a dinner party. He then composed an entire theory around this. There is nothing more to discuss on this point.

Machiavelli successfully diverted me from this very point. My bad.

There are some guilters-of-days'-past who would fight tooth and nail to avoid using the specific term "Satanic" to describe Mignini's initial theory. Remember, this is the theory (acc. to Barbie Nadeau) about which co-prosecutor Comodi threatened to quit the case if Migmini had gone into the 2009 with.

But, as you imply, who cares if the specific term "Satanic" had been used. The point is that Mignini was allowing his theory to drive the evidence, rather than the other way around.

There is no comparison between the MoF murders and the Kercher murder. The Kercher murder is consistent with millions of murders that occur around the world on a daily basis. It was bloody and it was violent, but there was no reason to think it was anything more than a single act performed by a single attacker. There was absolutely no basis for connecting it to some Satanic, ritualistic murder. That was all in Mignini's head.

Once again, Mignini tried to construct a case to showcase the case's eloquence, nuance of thought, and dietrological insight. In other words baffle them with cow exhaust.

 

[Vixen]

It doesn't matter whether Mignini actually believes in Satan. He believed the murder was ritualistic and was supposed to happen on Halloween but was delayed 24 hours due to a dinner party. He then composed an entire theory around this. There is nothing more to discuss on this point.



There is no comparison between the MoF murders and the Kercher murder. The Kercher murder is consistent with millions of murders that occur around the world on a daily basis. It was bloody and it was violent, but there was no reason to think it was anything more than a single act performed by a single attacker. There was absolutely no basis for connecting it to some Satanic, ritualistic murder. That was all in Mignini's head.

Don't talk rot. For an occultist, Halloween lasts all the way through 1 November. The Christian tradition follows the Jewish one in that Holy days commence the evening before, hence almost all holy events consist of two days, not one evening. (For example, Christmas Eve and Christmas Day.)

Please don't say occultists do not exist. I know at least three sincere Wiccans. They gently joke about how they get to celebrate the Winter Solstice six days before we get to pig out over Christmas.

I have known a couple of people take the dark arts very seriously, to the extent of prancing around Highgate Cemetery, at night, and avoiding nuns, as seeing one freaked them out, etc. This fear was real, as they took the type of drugs that caused paranoid delusions.

Heck, the Beatles had Aleister Crowley on the cover of their 'Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band'.

It wouldn't surprise me if someone dabbling in the dark side of Halloween out of their heads on hallucinogens and seething with teenage rage and jealousy did think it a good idea at the time. Both Knox and Sollecito referenced the remains of Vampire blood make up on Mez' chin that afternoon when she got up late. Both Rudy and Raff were fixated on Vampires and drinking blood.

Why wouldn't detectives moot the fact it happened at Halloween could be a factor the murder/rape, bearing in mind there was no burglary attempt.

Fact is, at the remand trial, Mignini was obliged by duty to put forward a possible motive for the crime. This is only the prosecutor's best guess at that early stage. Ultimately, as the investigation develops, the theory evolves, and in any case, it is the court which determines the motive, not the prosecutor.

 

[Vixen]

Snarky sarcasm aside, what do you think were the 'real world' reasons to think 'ritualistic' murder aside from the crime taking place the day after Halloween?

I thought we were talking about the Monster of Florence? Mignini merely pointed out the fact the Kercher murder occurred at Halloween. This is an important fact, as it meant the non-Italians were alone at home, as Italians traditionally treat the Day of the Dead and All Souls as a public holiday to be spent with close family.

Factor in, the popular girl went out partying and the plain one stayed home alone, seething.

 

[Vixen]

The real world - where male sexual violence and burglaries gone bad don't happen - but impromptu satanic rituals between strangers speaking different languages is the most plausible conclusion after a girl is found naked and stabbed to death with a single set of male footprints tracking fresh blood and semen around the body from the apartment with the break-in.

Not really. Both Knox and Rudy were 20-year olds, Raff was significantly older, at 23. Knox tried to underplay the fact she did know Rudy. In her book she claims she met him for the first time when one of the boys downstairs said, 'this is Rudy', when in fact she had met him at Le Chic and chatted about how she came from Seattle. Rudy socialised with the 20-something guys downstairs, so your theory that it is improbable Rudy would socialise with Amanda doesn't fit. Raff lived within two minutes of Rudy. Kokomani claims he saw the three together, as did a 34-year old ex-grad of Uni Perugia, Giordani, who saw the four coming out of the house together, when his car broke down.

In any case, the motive for the murder is more likely to be drug-addled violent manga vampire-slaying role players in a group 'teenage' murder (cf the Scream murder, where the two guys pretended they were in a Scream film) than a dirty loo or a row about rent money, IMV.

Who fetches a knife from the kitchen just because of a row?

In any case, Raff and Amanda each turning off their phones after getting Patrick's message, tells you everything you need to know.

 

[TruthCalls]

I thought we were talking about the Monster of Florence? Mignini merely pointed out the fact the Kercher murder occurred at Halloween. This is an important fact, as it meant the non-Italians were alone at home, as Italians traditionally treat the Day of the Dead and All Souls as a public holiday to be spent with close family.

Factor in, the popular girl went out partying and the plain one stayed home alone, seething.

So in other words there was no justification to consider this a ritualistic killing of any kind yet he crafted his entire case around just such a thing.

Once again you have your facts wrong. Amanda dressed as a black cat and went to Le Chic's. And there is no basis for suggesting Amanda was seething about anything.

I am curious, however, how "staying at home alone, seething" would lead one to conclude this was a ritualistic murder, even if that was what she had done.

 

[bagels]

Not really. Both Knox and Rudy were 20-year olds, Raff was significantly older, at 23. Knox tried to underplay the fact she did know Rudy. In her book she claims she met him for the first time when one of the boys downstairs said, 'this is Rudy', when in fact she had met him at Le Chic and chatted about how she came from Seattle. Rudy socialised with the 20-something guys downstairs, so your theory that it is improbable Rudy would socialise with Amanda doesn't fit.

I don't have a theory. You have a theory. I am simply pointing out reality. There's no established connection between them, other than coincidental proximity on an occasion or two due to mutual acquaintances.

Kokomani claims he saw the three together

lol

, as did a 34-year old ex-grad of Uni Perugia, Giordani, who saw the four coming out of the house together, when his car broke down.

Nah.

Who fetches a knife from the kitchen just because of a row?

Congrats on proving the prosecution's theory about the murder weapon stupid. I agree.

In any case, Raff and Amanda each turning off their phones after getting Patrick's message, tells you everything you need to know.

That they didn't want to be disturbed for the rest of the evening? Sure. That they engaged their intricate murder plan they previously concocted in broken English within five days of meeting as perfect strangers, and hoped Rudy would happen to be around to leave his criminal DNA and prints all over the place and keep his mouth shut when arrested? Not so much.

 

[Stacyhs]

You are incredibly ignorant, if you are unaware the prosecutors had good reason to believe what they believed to be a possible motive.

You are living in Cloud Cuckoo Land if you genuinely think - and I don't believe you do - that an extremely experienced prosecutor would just dream up an outlandish 'ritualistic' scenario for no reason except for a couple of 'Hail Mary's' with his wine.

Are you really as impervious to the real world as you make out?

And what "good reason" was that except for the fact the murder happened the day after Halloween? Was there a pentagram found in the room? How about black candles? An alter to Satan? Nope. Just a girl found stabbed to death and raped. Oh, wait...of course there had to be a connection because girls are never murdered and raped otherwise, right?

Mignini is convinced that satanic cults permeate Italy. Witness his Narducci theory without any evidence a satanic cult was involved. How about his attendance at the conference pictured above? Face it, Vixen; he believed this was cult related and he said so himself in his own statements. Stop pretending otherwise.

 

[Vixen]

So in other words there was no justification to consider this a ritualistic killing of any kind yet he crafted his entire case around just such a thing.

Once again you have your facts wrong. Amanda dressed as a black cat and went to Le Chic's. And there is no basis for suggesting Amanda was seething about anything.

I am curious, however, how "staying at home alone, seething" would lead one to conclude this was a ritualistic murder, even if that was what she had done.

Mignini never said it was a 'ritualistic' murder. You are confabulating the Monster of Florence - a murder carried out by someone with surgical instruments and skill. It was someone who preyed on courting couples and each murder bore the same hallmarks. If you know anything about Italy, the place is full of masonic lodges, which clash with Italian Roman Catholic culture. The masonic symbology is pretty similar to the 'ceremonial magicians', like Aleister Crowley, symbols depicting 'Baphomet' and a fixation on Ancient Egyptian symbolism (cg Eyes Wide Shut).

So, you can see why the detective profilers drew up a profile of Anti-Catholics (=read freemasons/satanists) (perhaps an ex-repressed Catholic feeling guilty about being a Peeping Tom), as each murder was similar to the others, hence the ritualistic element. The murders were designed to be an abomination to decent people, another indication.

I don't see anything controversial in the detectives positing a theory it was a ring of people behind the murders.

Amanda had a miserable evening. She was a hanger-on with Juve and his friends, who soon moved on.

 

[Vixen]

And what "good reason" was that except for the fact the murder happened the day after Halloween? Was there a pentagram found in the room? How about black candles? An alter to Satan? Nope. Just a girl found stabbed to death and raped. Oh, wait...of course there had to be a connection but girls are never murdered and raped otherwise, right?

Mignini is convinced that satanic cults permeate Italy. Witness his Narducci theory without any evidence a satanic cult was involved. How about his attendance at the conference pictured above? Face it, Vixen; he believed this was cult related and he said so himself in his own statements. Stop pretending otherwise.

Mignini never said the Kercher murder was a satanic ritual. At the preliminary remand trial, he did make a submission of his findings, which was Raff's strange behaviour, his knife fetish, his weird FB page, his idolisation of self-professed satanist, Marilyn Manson (and there are gullible young people who lap up this 'dark' stuff), etc.

Bear in mind the weird nature of the two knife stabbings in the neck, one from the right and one from the left, the numerous knife flick marks, indicating a period of taunting and torture,the obscene undressing and posing of the body, Raff's DNA on Mez' underwear, I don't think Mignini erred in noting the circumstances around this.

Fact is, there was a bizarre and unusually cruel murder. Thus the motive will have been a sadistic one.

 

[Vixen]

And what "good reason" was that except for the fact the murder happened the day after Halloween? Was there a pentagram found in the room? How about black candles? An alter to Satan? Nope. Just a girl found stabbed to death and raped. Oh, wait...of course there had to be a connection but girls are never murdered and raped otherwise, right?

Mignini is convinced that satanic cults permeate Italy. Witness his Narducci theory without any evidence a satanic cult was involved. How about his attendance at the conference pictured above? Face it, Vixen; he believed this was cult related and he said so himself in his own statements. Stop pretending otherwise.

Seriously? You are claiming the Monster of Florence murders didn't happen? Or that they were not really abominable?

 

[bagels]

Bear in mind the weird nature of the two knife stabbings in the neck

It was a one knife murder until Stef pulled her rabbit out of the hat and got bloodless DNA off the kitchen knife and prompted a scrambled two knife theory to explain why none of the wounds or imprints matched.

The ME initially told the police the murder weapon was a penknife or similarly shaped smallish blade (like the switchblade an eyewitness saw Rudy pull on him in a previous burglary maybe )

Mignini's theories about the crime all stemmed from his disbelief in the break-in being genuine, and Amanda's text to Patrick right before the murder.

His willingness to believe an American student on her eat pray love holiday surely must have orchestrated a rape murder with her perfectly willing boss against her friend for no reason, to the point that he had the cops beat a statement out of her at all costs, without first verifying any of the physical evidence, is a sign of his impressive stupidity. The latter case he worked to construct out of nothing to salvage his wrongful arrests and illegal interrogations, a sign of his corruption.

 

[Bill Williams]

His willingness to believe an American student on her eat pray love holiday surely must have orchestrated a rape murder with her perfectly willing boss against her friend for no reason, to the point that he had the cops beat a statement out of her at all costs, without first verifying any of the physical evidence, is a sign of his impressive stupidity. The latter case he worked to construct out of nothing to salvage his wrongful arrests and illegal interrogations, a sign of his corruption.

Note - just two weeks ago, the pro-Mignini PR machine was telling us that his defamation lawsuit and parallel criminal degamation against Sollecito and Gumbel was going to blow this case wide open.....

..... 2 1/2 years after the exonerations by the Italian Supreme Court.

Then........ the criminal action against Sollecito and Gumbel was thrown out, and Mignini withdrew his lawsuit. Still, the pro-Mignini PR campaign told us that that was not as it seemed. The legal collapse of the defamation stuff was merely a cover.

We were assured by the chief pro-Mignini nutcases that all of that was to set up a retraction and apology for Mignini from Sollecito and Gumbel.

Last week. That cow residue was supposed to have happened last week.

Did it happen?

No.

So what is the pro-Mignini PR campaign waits a bit and simply carries on. This time about an issue settled 8 years ago when Comodi threatened to quit the prosecution if Mignini had gone to trial with it - the Satanic ritualistic killing theory.

All to ignore and divert from the disaster for their PR campaign a few weeks ago. Ignore ignore ignore, divert divert divert.

Here we are. On the guilter merry-go-round.