Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

[Axxman300]

The wounds of John F. Kennedy himself appear to indicate multiple shooters.

Only one guy hit him.

 

[MicahJava]

He never gave a precise time, MicahJava.

He did say after he heard the first shot, he did have time to turn and look over his left shoulder, and then as he was turning back to look over his right shoulder, he was struck.

When does he turn to look over his left shoulder, Micah Java?

How long is it from then to Z224?

Hank

PS: Still waiting for this evidence:

What happened to the medical evidence of four or more shots which you previously asserted?
And the forensic evidence of multiple shooters which you previously asserted?
Now it's "photographic evidence for multiple shooters"?

He said it was a very, very brief time and that he initially thought they were being hit with an automatic weapon. He said that he did not hear the shot that hit him. When asked by the Warren Commission to mark the approximate spot on a map of Dealey Plaza that he felt the shot that struck him, he placed the limousine roughly in the z220 area. When shown the Zapruder Film by the Warren Commission, he said that he believed the first shot occurred up to and including frame z190. What you quote could be him describing him turning around in the ~z230's.

 

[RoboTimbo]

The wounds of John F. Kennedy himself appear to indicate multiple shooters.

No, not at all. They actually prove just one shooter from behind and above. Where did Oswald fire his three shots from?

 

[MicahJava]

Why? You think you know more than Lattimer about bullet wounds?

He was a surgeon in Europe during WWII. He saw planty of bullet wounds.

Hank

Apparently you missed my earlier post where Lattimer later admitted that the entry wound was near the EOP.

 

[HSienzant]

The wounds of John F. Kennedy himself appear to indicate multiple shooters.

That's funny. I could swear the autopsy doctors who had JFK's body in front of them and every forensic pathologist who ever examined the extant autopsy materials all reached a conclusion different than you.

Just a reminder that those doctors had performed over 100,000 autopsies between them.

You? Is NONE the right amount?

You've got nothing, and you know it. Time to roll out the accusations that the autopsy doctors were liars and the HSCA forensic pathologists were all incompetent and didn't know how to read radiographs.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

If you wanted to believe that a single round entered the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head, I would suggest going the X-ray alteration/substitute brain route.

I would suggest boning up in the 6.5x52mm Carcano round.

 

[HSienzant]

He said it was a very, very brief time and that he initially thought they were being hit with an automatic weapon.

Hilarious. Read it again. He estimated the total time of the three shots as ten to twelve seconds. I pointed out in the past that conspiracy books always leave that time estimate out when they are trying to make the case that Oswald didn't have sufficient time to fire three shots.

Here's one example of me pointing that out: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11510558&postcount=1733
I wrote:

But then there's this testimony from the same session which no conspiracy book ever quotes:
Mr. SPECTER. Governor, you have described hearing a first shot and a third shot. Did you hear a second shot?
Governor CONNALLY. No; I did not.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?
Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds.

I've pointed it out numerous times. I didn't expect you to pretend that time estimate didn't exist too.

He said that he did not hear the shot that hit him. When asked by the Warren Commission to mark the approximate spot on a map of Dealey Plaza that he felt the shot that struck him, he placed the limousine roughly in the z220 area.

So almost spot on, then.

When shown the Zapruder Film by the Warren Commission, he said that he believed the first shot occurred up to and including frame z190.]

Ok. That's what I said... he didn't eliminate frames before Z190. He eliminated frames after Z190. But you've claimed in the past the first shot happened in the Z190-224 range.

I believe there is virtually no witness evidence for any loud gunshot before z190.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11564445&postcount=1938
Originally posted by MicahJava

We know there was a shot at z190-z224, that's necessary. I don't see many good reasons to think there was a loud shot before that.

What you quote could be him describing him turning around in the ~z230's.

Wrong. He said those were his actions between the first and second shot, not after he was hit by the second shot. So you're arguing that Connally was wrong now and totally confused? This after citing his "brief span of time" reference but ignoring his claim that the three shots took 10 to 12 seconds?

I understand that's how conspiracy authors work. But they are hoping to sell books and have no reason to tell you the whole story. They are trying to sell a conspiracy theory. Telling you what Connally actually said would defeat the whole argument for a conspiracy, so they don't bother to tell you about his 10-12 second estimate for the shooting sequence.

But you're supposedly after the truth here. Somehow that looks less and less credible with every point you ignore.

Hank

 

[Axxman300]

He said it was a very, very brief time and that he initially thought they were being hit with an automatic weapon. He said that he did not hear the shot that hit him. When asked by the Warren Commission to mark the approximate spot on a map of Dealey Plaza that he felt the shot that struck him, he placed the limousine roughly in the z220 area. When shown the Zapruder Film by the Warren Commission, he said that he believed the first shot occurred up to and including frame z190. What you quote could be him describing him turning around in the ~z230's.

Connally is not a sound witness. No human being under stress ever is. That's why there are cockpit recorders AND flight data recorders in commercial airliners. That's why cops have dashboard cameras and now wear body cams.

We just had a number on "eye witnesses" identify the NYC terrorist's vehicle as a Ryder truck and not a Home Depot truck. There is an entire Ranger battalion that has no idea their relief arrived a few hours before sun-up at Rio Hato, Panama in 1989 - almost 500 highly trained professionals who never saw the two C-130's come in.

My point? Connally was shot. Had Oswald's aim been to the right the bullet goes through his heart. The man had a lot on his mind, and the Warren Commission was not a welcome event in his life.

You need a large bag of salt when you read any statement he made on this subject.

 

[HSienzant]

Apparently you missed my earlier post where Lattimer later admitted that the entry wound was near the EOP.

Apparently you missed my response where I pointed out Lattimer said the bullet still came out the top of the skull.

You are just running around like a headless chicken now.

I'll ask again: Do you think you know more about bullet wounds than Dr. Lattimer did? We both know the answer to that. You don't.

You also ignored the point that tests performed for the Warren Commission show the bullet is capable of doing exactly what we see in frame Z313 -- cause a massive explosion of blood and brains and skull from a bullet strike in the rear of the head... and the Warren Commission tests were using the lower entry wound you like to argue for.

So Lattimer reproduced those results using a higher entry point and Olivier reproduced those results using a lower entry point.

Exactly what's your problem with the tests?

Hank

 

[MicahJava]

Apparently you missed my response where I pointed out Lattimer said the bullet still came out the top of the skull.

You are just running around like a headless chicken now.

I'll ask again: Do you think you know more about bullet wounds than Dr. Lattimer did? We both know the answer to that. You don't.

You also ignored the point that tests performed for the Warren Commission show the bullet is capable of doing exactly what we see in frame Z313 -- cause a massive explosion of blood and brains and skull from a bullet strike in the rear of the head... and the Warren Commission tests were using the lower entry wound you like to argue for.

So Lattimer reproduced those results using a higher entry point and Olivier reproduced those results using a lower entry point.

Exactly what's your problem with the tests?

Hank

Do you agree with Lattimer about the EOP entry?

 

[Tomtomkent]

Do you agree with Lattimer about the EOP entry?

About what. “Near” is as variable as “slightly”.

Are you really going to try and bog down with semantics to avoid explaining why your conclusions differ so much from those given by Lattimer?

Perhaps answer the question you quoted: what is your problem with the tests? Both sets, from a higher or lower entry point have the same results and neither set suggest your downward veering bullet is a more likely outcome.

 

[HSienzant]

Do you agree with Lattimer about the EOP entry?

Hilarious! Do you agree with Lattimer, the original autopsists, and the HSCA forensic panel about the head exit wound?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Just note that I can post ten points in rebuttal, MicahJava will always choose just one, and question that one, deflecting from, or ignoring the rest.

The ten points will mutually reinforce each other, creating a property called consilience.

MicahJava will ignore all that, and pretend that by questioning the one, or deflecting from that one, he is somehow overturning all the points I made.

Here's just one example. We had this exchange:

... and yet Connally always said that the bullet that struck him came only a brief moment after he heard the first loud gunshot

That's true, but entirely misleading. He defined the entire assassination shooting sequence as happening in a brief span of time, but estimated that brief span of time as 10 to 12 seconds!
Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the timespan between the first shot which you heard and the shot which you heretofore characterized as the third shot?
Governor CONNALLY. It was a very brief span of time; oh, I would have to say a matter of seconds. I don't know, 10, 12 seconds.

That's five to six seconds between shots. Your argument is contrary to most other CTs, like Robert Harris, who claimed the second and third shots were closer together than the first and second (consult the earlier portions of this thread chain). You are arguing above for the first and second shots being bunched together.

But earlier this year you argued the last two - not the first two - were bunched together here:
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...postcount=2434
"I really think the best option is to have the first shot at z190-224, and the last two shots bunched together."

So you are caught once again flip-flopping around like a fish on a boat deck. So which shots were closer together? The first and second or the second and third? Or are they all bunched?

...(note Connally reported not hearing the bullet that struck him at this time, leaving leeway for the idea of a silenced round)?

I'm tempted to quote what Glenn said to Rick over the radio the first time they spoke in the Walking Dead television series. The bullet travels faster than sound, so the sound would have arrived at Connally after a bullet had just transected his trunk, sliced through his wrist, and struck his thigh. I think he had more important things to worry about than listening for the sound of the gunshot at that point. As Connally himself explained:
Mr. SPECTER. In your view, which bullet caused the injury to your chest, Governor Connally?
Governor CONNALLY. The second one.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your reason for that conclusion, sir?
Governor CONNALLY. Well, in my judgment, it just couldn't conceivably have been the first one because I heard the sound of the shot, In the first place, don't know anything about the velocity of this particular bullet, but any rifle has a velocity that exceeds the speed of sound, and when I heard the sound of that first shot, that bullet had already reached where I was, or it had reached that far, and after I heard that shot, I had the time to turn to my right, and start to turn to my left before I felt anything.
It is not conceivable to me that I could have been hit by the first bullet, and then I felt the blow from something which was obviously a bullet, which I assumed was a bullet, and I never heard the second shot, didn't hear it. I didn't hear but two shots. I think I heard the first shot and the third shot.

And even though Connally didn't hear it, numerous other people did. For instance, Nellie Connally, who WASN'T struck by a bullet, testified that she heard the shot that struck her husband.
Mrs. CONNALLY. Yes; and it seemed to me there was--he made no utterance, no cry. I saw no blood, no anything. It was just sort of nothing, the expression on his face, and he just sort of slumped down.
Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

... yadda yadda, what is your evidence that a rifle shot fired from the TSBD Sniper's Nest could create the acoustic illusion within Dealey Plaza that caused 40-50% of witnesses to claim that they thought the shots came from the grassy knoll?

Well, let's ask the witnesses, shall we? Here's one:
Mr. BELIN - And were you able to form an opinion as to the source of the sound or what direction it came from, I mean?
Mr. BOWERS - The sounds came either from up against the School Depository Building or near the mouth of the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL - Were you able to tell which?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - Well, now, had you had any experience before being in the tower as to sounds coming from those various places?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; I had worked this same tower for some 10 or 12 years, and was there during the time they were renovating the School Depository Building, and had noticed at that time the similarity of sounds occurring in either of those two locations.
Mr. BALL - Can you tell me now whether or not it came, the sounds you heard, the three shots came from the direction of the Depository Building or the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - No; I could not.
Mr. BALL - From your experience there, previous experience there in hearing sounds that originated at the Texas School Book Depository Building, did you notice that sometimes those sounds seem to come from the triple underpass? Is that what you told me a moment ago?
Mr. BOWERS - There is a similarity of sound, because there is a reverberation which takes place from either location.
Mr. BALL - Had you heard sounds originating near the triple underpass before?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; quite often. Because trucks backfire and various occurrences.

Bowers was there. You were not.

In addition, the HSCA studied this question, and arrived at a far lower figure for the percentage of grassy knoll witnesses. And we dealt with this just recently. All those grassy knoll witnesses thought ALL the shots came from the knoll. But you argued above that some of the shooters were behind JFK, so they all couldn't be on the knoll. So the witnesses you hold up to the light and ask "how could they be mistaken?", were mistaken according to your own arguments. Because according to you, some of the shooters were behind JFK but the witnesses you reference thought all the shots came from the knoll only. So they were wrong, right?

All this was pointed out to you in the past when you previously raised these very same issues.

But following the CT playbook, you simply pretend they have never been answered, wait a while, and then do a fringe reset and ask the same questions all over again.

Sorry, repetition doesn't make them more true.

Now, there's a lot of info above. Did MicahJava patiently go through all that and show where I was wrong? Did he quote the doctors or the witnesses or anyone?

Did he show us the evidence and show how the evidence indicated he was correct?

No.

He simply handwaved it away, pretending I misunderstood his point somehow and repeated his contradictory point with this response:

I think you're confusing witnesses describing large head shot. The witness evidence indicates that the last two out of three loud gunshots were closely bunched together, to the point that many apparently mistook the last two shots as only one shot.

So even while disagreeing with me, he's still disagreeing with himself. He's arguing the last two (of three 'loud') shots were bunched, while also arguing Connally thought the first two shots were bunched (and pretending there were 'silenced' shots in between all these).

Sorry, he's not interested in reaching a correct conclusion here. He's interested solely in spreading the gospel of conspiracy according to MicahJava.

He's a man on a mission.

Hank

 

[bknight]

I believe there is virtually no witness evidence for any loud gunshot before z190. How many witnesses described seeing Kennedy react to the first shot, not continue smiling and waving for a few moments?

I indicated it was my opinion, are you reading challenged. I could easily be wrong with that opinion. However it is clear that JFK was hit first behind the sign, JBC just after reappearing from behind the sign.

You never, as always, answered my question what is your interpretation of the film. I'll give you literary license no science required no witness testimony.

 

[bknight]

If you wanted to believe that a single round entered the EOP and exited the top-right side of the head, I would suggest going the X-ray alteration/substitute brain route.

Cite evidence where the x-rays have been altered, and not just the CT wackos out to sell books.

Substitute brain, now there is a newbie for me unless you attempted to bring it out months ago. Where did you come up with that one? Cite evidence for such assertions.

 

[bknight]

How soon after the first loud gunshot did Connally always say he was struck, Hank?

Is it possible that JBC at have been mistaken in his recollection of being hit?

 

[bknight]

The wounds of John F. Kennedy himself appear to indicate multiple shooters.

No evidence of multiple shooters in the autopsy report. Oh I get it you still contend that all three are lying.

 

[HSienzant]

No evidence of multiple shooters in the autopsy report. Oh I get it you still contend that all three are lying.

But that is only when he's not taking their quotes out of context to argue that there was two shots to the head and multiple shooters.

He's got that black box or secret decoder ring that tells him when someone is truthful and when they are lying.

Here's a look inside that black box: When it can be interpreted to point to a conspiracy then whoever said it is truthful and correct. When it can't be interpreted to point to a conspiracy then whoever said it is lying pond scum.

Hank

 

[bknight]

But that is only when he's not taking their quotes out of context to argue that there was two shots to the head and multiple shooters.

He's got that black box or secret decoder ring that tells him when someone is truthful and when they are lying.

Here's a look inside that black box: When it can be interpreted to point to a conspiracy then it is truthful and correct. When it can't be interpreted to point to a conspiracy then whoever said it is lying pond scum.

Hank

Yes his decoder ring leads him to believe there are two entry head wounds, but as we all know the autopsy record has only one and every commission, agency, panel, committee has agreed to that fact. He fails miserably on that point, time to buy a new cereal box.

 

[MicahJava]

Hilarious! Do you agree with Lattimer, the original autopsists, and the HSCA forensic panel about the head exit wound?

Hank

Apples and oranges.

1. Lattimer has been known to stretch his interpretation of the back wound photograph so he can place it on the base of the neck and match it with the dark air cavity on the lower-right side of Kennedy's neck on the X-rays. So he is more or less a spokesman for the official story. He then later conceded that the original EOP entry location was true, even though he had spent years of his life saying that the cowlick entry theory was true.

2. The original autopsy doctors said that the outward beveling on the right side of the head could only be seen when previously-missing skull bone was shipped back from Dallas. They did not recognize the beveled "exit" on the open-cranium photographs theorized by the HSCA to be located in the frontal-parietal area.

3. The HSCA's interpretation of the photographs is unsupported, and their interpretation was denied by the autopsy doctors who always said that there was no beveling on the skull bone they examined at the beginning of the autopsy.