Cont: JFK Conspiracy Theories V: Five for Fighting

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One GSW to the back, exiting slightly below the adams apple. MJ still needs to cite where that entry shot is below the exit wound.

The same pathology panel that determined the bullet wound in the head was at what MicahJava calls the 'red splotch' also determined the wound in the back was anatomically lower than the wound in the throat.

See this HSCA illustration which shows an upward path through JFK if JFK is anatomically upright. But if the car slowed a little, or JFK leaned forward just a bit to say something to the Governor, the wound path is at a downward angle.

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/images/HSCA_Vol7_pg55.jpg

Lifton argues the bullet wound on the back was accidentally placed too low by conspirators forging wounds.

Hank
 
Wow. You really didn't think this through. Neither did Lifton. Who altered Connally's wounds? And when and where?

Lifton is quite clear in his book BEST EVIDENCE that his argument is that all the shooters were in front of JFK. That puts all the shooters in front of Connally as well.

Since, like JFK, Connally had wounds inflicted from behind, that means that Lifton is arguing the shot(s) that wounded Connally came from the floor of the car, immediately in front of Connally, and his back wounds were created later by reconstructive surgery as well.

Was this done in the limo? Or did the Dallas doctors do it and lie about it in their testimony? Those are really the only two possibilities if you want to keep Lifton's alteration theory afloat.

Or, alternatively, Lifton is full of it, and he invented a theory that falls of its own weight. There's a reason his 747-page book mentions Connally only seven times, and never in conjunction with how his wounding could have happened if all the shooters were in front of the limo.

Lifton's 747-page book is an excellent doorstop, but otherwise is meaningless to any rational discussion of the assassination. It simply could not have happened the way he suggests.

https://groups.google.com/d/msg/alt.assassination.jfk/MAPMTY77osk/3L_-PTtFOjYJ

I pointed all this out to Lifton in the early 1990's (see the above link). He still hasn't explained how Connally's wounds were altered.

Which is more likely - that you have uncovered fundamental flaws in this field that no one has ever thought about, or you need to read a little more?

Hank

I didn't get through the first chapter of Lifton's book, because I was laughing too hard at the "badgeman" crap and his attempt to turn every black splotch on a picture into a shooter.

At that point, I realized he had no relationship with reality and it wasn't worth reading any further.
 
The same pathology panel that determined the bullet wound in the head was at what MicahJava calls the 'red splotch' also determined the wound in the back was anatomically lower than the wound in the throat.

See this HSCA illustration which shows an upward path through JFK if JFK is anatomically upright. But if the car slowed a little, or JFK leaned forward just a bit to say something to the Governor, the wound path is at a downward angle.

https://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/images/HSCA_Vol7_pg55.jpg

Lifton argues the bullet wound on the back was accidentally placed too low by conspirators forging wounds.

Hank

If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumped.:)

That's about all the CT's have IF
But most of us know those ifs never play out in the real world
 
The same pathology panel that determined the bullet wound in the head was at what MicahJava calls the 'red splotch' also determined the wound in the back was anatomically lower than the wound in the throat.

See this HSCA illustration which shows an upward path through JFK if JFK is anatomically upright. But if the car slowed a little, or JFK leaned forward just a bit to say something to the Governor, the wound path is at a downward angle.


And just to pile on, the car was on a 3 degree down slope.

Although we'll obviously never know for sure, based on the Zapruder film, Kennedy may have leaned forward because he thought Connally wanted to speak to him when the governor was actually turning around to look for the shooter.
 
If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumped.:)

That's about all the CT's have IF
But most of us know those ifs never play out in the real world

On the contrary, I think JFK leaning forwards, or speaking to Conally are reasonable explanations for the wound given what we can see in the Z film, and how people act in the real world.

A lot of confusion about the "magic bullet" comes from the version seen in the Oliver Stone movie, assuming that the passengers sat upright and on the same level.

The obvious reality is that few people are ever sat upright, the passengers were not on the same level, and it is fairly easy to align the wounds, with the sixth floor and each other.
 
And just to pile on, the car was on a 3 degree down slope.

Although we'll obviously never know for sure, based on the Zapruder film, Kennedy may have leaned forward because he thought Connally wanted to speak to him when the governor was actually turning around to look for the shooter.

Yes.
Or leaning forwards to try and look for the sound himself.
Or because of his back brace.
Or to duck.
Or because he wanted to ask Connally "Did you hear that?"
 
Lifton never quite explained HOW one moves bullet wounds, either, which is a pretty big stumbling block, if the aim of the game was to convince honest autopsy surgeons of the conspiracy.

There was no need to move wounds, according to Lifton.

His theory is the shooters in the front shot JFK in the front and the bullets never exited, leaving the back of JFK unmarked. How or why they could guarantee the bullets wouldn't exit, Lifton doesn't explain. Nor does he ever put a definitive location for the shooters in his book. He ignores that issue because at the time of the head shot, the knoll is to JFK's right side, not front. The only thing in front of the limousine is the overpass, and that had about a dozen railroad worker spectators, along with two cops on it during the assassination. So Lifton's imagined shooters in front of the President necessary for his theory to work can't be anywhere in front of the President, anther pretty serious failing that appears not to both Lifton whatsoever.

The conspirators then (in Lifton's theory) went in the front through the existing wounds, enlarging the entry wounds, to retrieve the bullets. This made the small entry wounds in the throat or right temple look larger for example but also removed the bullets so no bullets were found in the body when the full body radiographs were taken at Bethesda. This left the back of the body unmarked, so the conspirators could pretty much punch holes anywhere in the back of the body to create fake entry wounds on JFK's body.

In addition to not explaining how they accomplished this feat on the living Connally, nor explaining how they expected this plan to work had JFK survived the assassination (like Connally did), Lifton totally ignores the fact that wounds created on a living person look nothing like wounds created on a dead person, and body alteration would not fool a first-year medical student.

Ultimately, Lifton even said the original plan was for some Parkland doctors to do the body alteration at Parkland Hospital!

3:56 - 5:58 into this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVrxtiA98hc

David Lifton is the prime example of loon in the assassination researcher community.


If you were shooting from the front, the much more obvious solution would be to put a patsy on the grassy knoll.

The early conspiracy theorists were trying to find ways to exclude Oswald as a means to establish conspiracy. They ignored entirely the possibility that Oswald could be a shooter - even the lone shooter - and a conspiracy could still exist. So this led to examining the evidence published by the Warren Commission with a fine-toothed comb, looking for any reason to exclude evidence against Oswald. So we got a lot of arguments that can't all be true and that are often mutually exclusive. Looking at the rifle arguments alone, we got false starts such as:

1. A Mauser was the rifle discovered, Oswald's MC was swapped for it later.
2. Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle was stolen from the Paine garage and planted in the Depository.
3. There's no evidence Oswald kept his weapon in the Paine garage.
4. Oswald's MC had no clip when planted in the Depository, the clip was added later. Without a clip, Oswald couldn't fire fast enough to accomplish the shooting alone.
5. Oswald never owned a rifle, that was ordered and picked up by conspirators from the post office. The paper trail was faked.
6. His prints on the MC were planted there.
7. The three shells were of course planted as well.
8. Oswald bought the rifle, but there's no evidence he bought any bullets. Without bullets, he couldn't commit the assassination.
9. And where'd he get the sling, anyway?
etc...

The most obvious solution, if the conspirators are intent on framing Oswald while killing the President, is to put the conspirators' best marksman in the Depository with one rifle, shot JFK from behind, leave that weapon behind and have that marksman flee the building. The paper trail indicates Oswald owned the rifle and nothing else need be faked or altered or planted.

But the CTs went off the rails early in the process, thinking only that to absolve Oswald is to establish a conspiracy, when that's not even necessary to establish a conspiracy. So for 54 years they've gone over the evidence sifting it with finer and finer combs, looking for the one issue that would show Oswald wasn't involved. They can't find it, because he was involved, and that's what all the evidence indicates.


...Put the patsy on the knoll, and it could be literally anybody. It's a public space. You don't need the complex charade of curtain poles, fake photos, and pot shots being made at the General. Your conspiracy wont be foiled if the patsy chooses to eat lunch outside, watching the president in the crowd, or if he joined others at the depository in their vantage point, being even remotely sociable. Your conspiracy won't fail, if Oswald walks out the back of the building for a smoke.

Oswald wasn't a smoker [typical CT retort to the point made, ignoring the point made].

Regardless of who was arrested for the crime, or where he was located, we'd still be at this point, but just with a different accused assassin. Because the CTs are not interested in solving the crime (that was done long ago). They are only interested in establishing a conspiracy involving multiple shooters, even when the evidence indicates no such thing ever occurred.

Hank
 
On the contrary, I think JFK leaning forwards, or speaking to Conally are reasonable explanations for the wound given what we can see in the Z film, and how people act in the real world.

A lot of confusion about the "magic bullet" comes from the version seen in the Oliver Stone movie, assuming that the passengers sat upright and on the same level.

The obvious reality is that few people are ever sat upright, the passengers were not on the same level, and it is fairly easy to align the wounds, with the sixth floor and each other.

I agree with that trajectory and have asked MJ to cite where the entry is below the exit, referring to the back wound of course.

According to Myers video representation, JFK was hit behind the Stemmons freeway sign entering JBC just as JBC emerges from behind the sign. I believe he recreated the 3 D animation to the truest possibility of the Zapruder film.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPrzCGVi3_E&t=43s
EDIT:
Here is one of the Myers videos. the link also has his destruction of the dicta belt.
 
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I didn't get through the first chapter of Lifton's book, because I was laughing too hard at the "badgeman" crap and his attempt to turn every black splotch on a picture into a shooter.

At that point, I realized he had no relationship with reality and it wasn't worth reading any further.

It's priceless as a source of how this conspiracy theorist's mind works. Having been convinced of a conspiracy, when he is confronted with evidence that the original evidence that convinced him of a conspiracy is not what it first appeared to be, he had two choices:

1. Change his opinion about whether there was a conspiracy.
2. Imagine a bigger and deeper conspiracy.​

Lifton is quite clear he choose option 2.

It's also quite a humorous book when you read it as a spoof of how CTs minds work, only of course, it's not a spoof. Lifton actually convinced himself of this nonsense. Lifton's original submission - as he admits - was a third person accounting of the logic and the facts behind his conclusion. His publisher said to rewrite it as a first person account, telling us your thoughts as best you can recall each step of the way. It's priceless for that alone.

Hank
 
If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass every time he jumped.:)

That's about all the CT's have IF
But most of us know those ifs never play out in the real world

Have it your way - JFK wasn't leaning forward, the shooter was in the trunk of the car, the bullet went upward through his body and exited moving upward. Connally was struck by another bullet.

Is that where you were going with that argument?

Hank
 
On the contrary, I think JFK leaning forwards, or speaking to Conally are reasonable explanations for the wound given what we can see in the Z film, and how people act in the real world.

A lot of confusion about the "magic bullet" comes from the version seen in the Oliver Stone movie, assuming that the passengers sat upright and on the same level.

I should note that was Cyril Wecht's thing, too. I don't know if he did it before Garrison or after, though.
 
I should note that was Cyril Wecht's thing, too. I don't know if he did it before Garrison or after, though.

It's important to note that the movie "JFK" by Stone was an amalgam of various issues raised by many CTs over the nearly 30 years preceding the making of the movie. Garrison was used by Stone merely as a conduit to push the conspiracy theories through the eyes of one man. Most of those theories Garrison never dealt with, and many of the issues Garrison did raise were not in the script because they made no sense on any level.

For example, Garrison found the same phone number in both Oswald's and Ruby's address books, and thought he was onto something big. Discovering it was the phone number of the same local Dallas TV station obviously deterred Stone from putting that into the movie, finding out the number was listed in the pages of the phone book (remember those?) obviously made any conspiratorial argument nonsense.

Separately, Garrison also found the numbers 19106 in two men's address books. In Clay Shaw's book, it was preceded by the letters PO, and in Oswald's, by two Cyrillic characters. Garrison found, that by substituting numbers for other numbers, adding additional numbers, and multiplying you could convert that 19106 into Jack Ruby's unlisted phone number (of course, you could also convert it into anything else you wanted if you get to make up the conversion rules after the fact, as Garrison did). He said the number was wholly fictitious and therefore very significant. But in fact it wasn't fictitious, and Shaw's address book also listed the owner as Lee Odom. He and Shaw had met, both Shaw & Odom said when asked, to discuss sponsoring bullfights. And the PO Box had not even existed prior to 1965, when it was assigned to Odom. So it could NOT have any significance as a PO Box in Oswald's book, as Oswald died before the box was created.

More details here: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/garrisn1.txt

But that's the kind of stuff Garrison was doing that wasn't fit to make the cut in the movie. It's wrong to put that drawing in Garrison's hands. I don't believe he had any part in its genesis (nor did Wecht). If I had to guess, it's probably something that Robert Groden made to illustrate the strawman bullet path he claimed the Warren Commission argued for.

Hank
 
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On the contrary, I think JFK leaning forwards, or speaking to Conally are reasonable explanations for the wound given what we can see in the Z film, and how people act in the real world.

A lot of confusion about the "magic bullet" comes from the version seen in the Oliver Stone movie, assuming that the passengers sat upright and on the same level.

The obvious reality is that few people are ever sat upright, the passengers were not on the same level, and it is fairly easy to align the wounds, with the sixth floor and each other.
I think you are wrong. I think it is a matter of a lack of 3D spatial reasoning.

Everyone is likely familiar with the game of Connect four. The consternation that transpired when I introduced 3D connect four to my kids was spectacular. But the glommed onto it pretty quick.

Some folks seem stuck in 2D. I am at a loss to explain that.
 
I think you are wrong. I think it is a matter of a lack of 3D spatial reasoning.

Everyone is likely familiar with the game of Connect four. The consternation that transpired when I introduced 3D connect four to my kids was spectacular. But the glommed onto it pretty quick.

Some folks seem stuck in 2D. I am at a loss to explain that.

It's a straw man argument that conspiracy theorists have sold to the American public as a fact to argue against the so-called "magic bullet theory". There's actually nothing magical about a copper-jacketed bullet that is designed to penetrate flesh without deformation doing exactly that.

Here's the way they picture it:
http://dyingwords.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/A71.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bogus3.gif (From High Treason; by Groden & Livingstone)

But with a few minor tweaks, hardly worth mentioning, here's the actual path:
http://dyingwords.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/A61.jpg

Of course Oliver Stone used the straw man version of the men's seating arrangement's, not the correct one, in his movie "JFK".

Hank
 
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It's a straw man argument that conspiracy theorists have sold to the American public as a fact to argue against the so-called "magic bullet theory". There's actually nothing magically about a copper-jacketed bullet that is designed to penetrate flesh without deformation doing exactly that.

Here's the way they picture it:
http://dyingwords.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/A71.jpg
http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/bogus3.gif

But with a few minor tweaks, hardly worth mentioning, here's the actual path:
http://dyingwords.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/A61.jpg

Of course Oliver Stone used the straw man version of the men's seating arrangement's, not the correct one, in his movie JFK.

Hank
That is simply annoying though. To me, the bullet path is entirely natural. I know too much about trajectories, deflections, fragmentation and such like. These are testable matters of science. Hell, reproductions have been performed to beat the band.

One is left with a choice as to why some adhere to the CT. And none of those are happy choices. Nevertheless, the CTs are quite happy to make crap up, outright lie, and take a massive dump over actual evidence.

I am minded of the famous Adam Savage quote, "I reject your reality and substitute my own". Said statement was made in mockery, but that is what CTs actually do.

Our current proponent is but one step away from the Judy Wood position, death rays from space. How is it possible to be unaware of that?
 
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Changing the subject entirely, I think it's important to note that our most recent conspiracy advocate on this board, who has quoted liberally from recollections made to the HSCA (15 years after the assassination) and the ARRB (33 years after the assassination) to support his claims has quite a different take on recollections when it suits his purposes on the 9/11 forums.

Also, I think some of you are interpreting quotes of first responders a certain way. I acknowledge that there are several statements from firefighters saying that they personally agreed that the building was jeopardy because of the damage and/or warning signs they observed. But you should also realize that A. These statements were made in hindsight, in some cases years later. It is important to be conscious on how hindsight can affect a witness statement. B. Within the firefighter community, and generally the community of first responders on the day of 9/11/2001, you may observe that they are more likely to talk in terms of first person "We".

Edit: I wrote the above at the same time as the post immediately preceding. But given he talks about the Judy Woods "Death Rays from Space" (sounds like a 1950s low budget sci fi movie) theory for 9/11, it's actually not that much of a change of subject.
 
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But that's the kind of stuff Garrison was doing that wasn't fit to make the cut in the movie. It's wrong to put that drawing in Garrison's hands. I don't believe he had any part in its genesis (nor did Wecht).

I could swear I saw Wecht doing this nonsense in a TV special. He had a physical mock-up, not just a drawing.

It may have been after the OJ trial, because I remember seeing him in the OJ trial and thinking he knows his stuff, but then I saw his crap with the limo and it made me question everything about him.
 
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