Brexit: Now What? Part IV

Status
Not open for further replies.
The Don said:
There's a bit of a furore at the moment about leaked accounts in a German newspaper of Theresa May's meeting which was, according to the UK government, so productive.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41720244

As usual, the idiots who are mishandling the negotiations are not interested in addressing the issue or indeed progressing the talks but are instead intent on spreading the "poor little Britain being picked on by those horrible Europeans" narrative.
Click to expand...

Worth noting that Martin Selmayr has issued a statement denying that he leaked this and repudiating the contents of the story as fictional.
 
From Badscience

jdc said:
Looking at what foods we tend to import, it seems to be mainly meat, vegetables, and fruit. So nothing we'll miss then.

We've still got cereals and milk so maybe that MP who wanted to make a success of breakfast had it right after all.
Click to expand...
 
ceptimus said:
One would hope that the EU negotiators would start to actually, you know, negotiate. So far they're just stalling to try to extort more money from us.
Click to expand...

It is almost schadenfreude inducing to watch you realise that the EU isn't going to roll over and let you tickle their belly as you leavers promised us just a few months ago. Then I remember I'm in the same boat with you and the others at the helm.

ceptimus said:
It wasn't the politicians who fixed the Y2K bugs either. It was people like me.

It will be the same with Brexit - once the politicians have moved along with their time-wasting dance, it will be down to people who actually work for a living to make the necessary changes.

Some things certainly won't be complete by the target date - the politicians have already wasted over a year. There will have to be an interim period where many things carry on as at present.

Even if the politicians had got their act together (and in my opinion it's mainly the EU side that are delaying things) then it still doesn't make sense to try to change everything over on the same day - much better to plan a phased process where, say, regulations about medicine come into force on one day, and regulations about flights some other day.

Plan the most important and/or easily achievable changes to take place straight away and the less important or more difficult ones later. As with any large complex project you'll expect some time overruns on some issues and the sensible adult approach on those is to say, "We're not ready to make that change yet - so until we are we'll carry on doing things the way we have for the last several decades."
Click to expand...

Yeah. The politicians might actually have to define and achievable goal though. The Y2K was a very neatly confined problem. Brexit not so much. Not one of you leavers can actually articulate what the reality of it means yet.

ceptimus said:
The EU plan is to extort as much money as possible from the UK before even allowing the negotiations on the real issues to begin.

The UK plan was to keep trade free but take control of our borders and laws. In the face of EU obstructionism the current UK plan seems to be to wait till the EU realize that they have a lot to lose too - and so begin to negotiate in good faith.

I've said many times here that I thought the negotiations would be a complete waste of time - and so far I've been proved right. It's a tragedy that the politicians have stalled the process for so long already - but that's what politicians do.
Click to expand...

And you were repeatedly told that your plan to keep free trade without the other freedoms would be rejected by the EU. And now they are doing that you are realising we were right.

ceptimus said:
What specifics do you want? UK leave the EU and no longer have MEPs or other political representation. No tariffs on any goods or trade. End to free movement of people. EU Law no longer trumps UK law. This is what the leave side have been advocating for many years before the referendum even.

It's the remain side that can't or won't say what they want. Of course what they really want is to remain, but given that we're leaving they don't seem to be able to suggest any coherent alternative arrangements that they can agree on.
Click to expand...

You do realise both sides have to agree to the plan? Your dream scenario was always wishful thinking. You were told that at that time and denied it. Now you are upset that what you are told is true.

ceptimus said:
Yes, but you only expect the politicians to sign the documents, agree how much money to hand over, and set some target dates. You don't expect them to actually build port facilities, hire workers, write the documents they sign and so on - that is proper work to be done by non-politicians once the politicians provide the targets and route taxpayers' money in the appropriate directions.
Click to expand...

No I expect them to actually negotiate an agreement that doesn't tank the economy because they are pandering to racists. Too much apparently?

ceptimus said:
He can't do that until the EU either actually negotiate a trade agreement or they delay and obfuscate for so long that it becomes clear that there won't be such an agreement.
Click to expand...

Are you finally realising that the UK isn't as much of a big deal to the EU as you dreamt it was?

ceptimus said:
No matter how much you want to negotiate and conclude the negotiations, you can't do it if the other side doesn't want to.

At the moment the EU just want offers of cash - and aren't prepared to say what we may or may not get in return for the cash until the size of the bribe has been agreed. They're not even willing to begin talking about trade till they've maximized the amount of money they can extort. They may just as well say, "We refuse to negotiate" as that is what their current negotiating tactics amount to.
Click to expand...

Yep. They refuse to sacrifice their principles to satisfy the UK. We told you that would be the case. Now what? Is it a surprise? You surely had a plan for this obvious outcome?

ceptimus said:
They need to start putting some figures on paper: "You can have trade with these specified tariff levels so long as you continue to pay us twenty billion Euros per year." That sort of thing.

Once we can see the size of the bill for maintaining "Free" trade (or the nearest thing to free they'll allow) we can decide whether or not it's worth it.
Click to expand...

Or they could just ignore the UK completely and go on with their lives? They don't NEED to ddo anything.

ceptimus said:
It would be simplest and cheapest to just cancel the pensions of MEPs. They'll have the standard old age pension and means tested benefits to fall back on - just like the people who would otherwise be paying for their bloated pensions. Most of them are probably pretty wealthy anyway. Farage could just write a few books (or have some hack ghost write them for him) if and when he finds he can't afford food and shelter.
Click to expand...

Great. It would be simplest and cheapest to just cancel everyone's pensions. And benefits. Is this your ACTUAL suggestion?

Aber said:
Evidence?

There's some confusion on this.

The nightmare scenario is 'no deals on anything', which is extremely unlikely. This is not the same as no future trade deal.
Click to expand...

The whole Brexit is just different shades of nightmare scenario. The only possible benefit is that racists get a few less foreign faces on the bus. And everyone else gets to feel the pain of it.
 
A Tory whip has taken it upon himself to check that no thought crimes happen on UK campuses:

Chris Heaton-Harris, Conservative MP for Daventry and a staunch Eurosceptic, wrote to vice-chancellors at the start of this month asking for the names of any professors involved in teaching European affairs “with particular reference to Brexit”
Click to expand...

https://www.theguardian.com/educati...sm-mp-demands-list-brexit-chris-heaton-harris

Nice though that it's only asks about those teaching European affairs so counter revolutionary thought can still be discussed in economics classes.
 
Well on the plus side if there isn't any deal with the EU I'm sure he'll be principled enough to turn down any MEP pension funded by the remaining 27 countries.
 
BBC report on it

A Eurosceptic Tory MP has been accused of compiling a "hit list" of university professors who teach Brexit courses.
Downing Street has distanced itself from government whip Chris Heaton-Harris, who wrote to universities asking for the names of professors.
Lecturers reacted with fury to the letter, calling it a "sinister" attempt to censor them and accusing him of conducting a "McCarthyite" witch hunt.

They have a copy of the letter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41735839
 
We have had national newspaper headlines calling for judges and ministers to be sacked and for 'traitors' to be deported. Now this. Welcome to the new pub lynch mob 'sovereignty'.
 
Captain_Swoop said:
BBC report on it

A Eurosceptic Tory MP has been accused of compiling a "hit list" of university professors who teach Brexit courses.
Downing Street has distanced itself from government whip Chris Heaton-Harris, who wrote to universities asking for the names of professors.
Lecturers reacted with fury to the letter, calling it a "sinister" attempt to censor them and accusing him of conducting a "McCarthyite" witch hunt.

They have a copy of the letter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-41735839
Click to expand...



Downing Street said Mr Heaton-Harris had written to universities in his capacity as an MP and not as a representative of government.
Click to expand...
Seems like a rather desperate distinction.

I understand what they are trying to say, but it seems like weak sauce.
 
The letter itself seems pretty benign. Is there some other material that's caused this big reaction?

Is it just that the MP is a known Eurosceptic? Is it conceivable that a pro-EU MP could have written a similar letter, and if one had would it have caused such a reaction?
 
ceptimus said:
The letter itself seems pretty benign. Is there some other material that's caused this big reaction?

Is it just that the MP is a known Eurosceptic? Is it conceivable that a pro-EU MP could have written a similar letter, and if one had would it have caused such a reaction?
Click to expand...
I can't think of a plausible benign purpose for it, but if you can, I will be pleased to know.
 
ceptimus said:
The letter itself seems pretty benign. Is there some other material that's caused this big reaction?

Is it just that the MP is a known Eurosceptic? Is it conceivable that a pro-EU MP could have written a similar letter, and if one had would it have caused such a reaction?
Click to expand...

Its not benign at all. The info requested in that letter could just have easily have been gleaned by looking it up on the internet. The point of the letter is to let universities know the government has their eye on them.
 
Strawberry said:
Its not benign at all. The info requested in that letter could just have easily have been gleaned by looking it up on the internet. The point of the letter is to let universities know the government has their eye on them.
Click to expand...


But ... but ... but ... he's not with the government. He's just a Member of Parliament.

No connection to the government at all.
 
quadraginta said:
But ... but ... but ... he's not with the government. He's just a Member of Parliament.

No connection to the government at all.
Click to expand...

Aye right. Apart from being a Tory whip and writing to them on HoC notepaper. There was a subtle - although plausibly deniable - threat in that letter.
 
Rat said:
I can't think of a plausible benign purpose for it, but if you can, I will be pleased to know.
Click to expand...

Seconded, because I am damned if I can think of any, especially given the way May has fought so hard to avoid any oversight of her decision making by parliament and the courts.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom