Michael Shermer vs. "alternative history" Hancock and Crandall

[King of the Americas]

That's an argument from your personal belief system.

You have yet another problem. You claim that all the evidence was washed away in a magical flood, yet Klaus Schimdt, the Gobekli Tepe archaeologist found the stone tools used construct it. It gets worse for you. The skull incisions found at Gobekli Tepe are also only from stone tools.

More recently archaeologists found the residue of the grains that were used there and they were all wild grains. That destroys your fantasy about pre-12,500 agriculture.

It would seem your magical flood only removed evidence relating to your fantasy claims but left all the normal evidence there.

You're pettifogging.

I've carved granite with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped grinding tips. I've taken cold rolled steel to limestone, and I've used high speed steel tips to carve soft wood. I've also flacked or slabbed flint, and 'sorta' made what looks like an arrowhead. Although my experience is or skill level is not a master's level, I consider my knowledge about stone removal, shaping and polishing above anyone here... I can state with absolute certainty, that the cuts I posted were not carved with bronze and copper, or stone chisels.

Unless you can use those tools to create that site, duplicate them, and mimic the building technique, I'd say it is an unfounded statement to say, "this is how these were built."

I read that GT was the site where wild became, or mutated into domesticated wheat. Do you have a citation?

Yes, a flood, evidenced by the scablands, inundated the world...and toppled a global civilization.Over 10,000 years has erased all but their mighty monuments and seemingly impossible architecture.

Attributing these works to hunter gatherers with stone tools is utterly laughable.

 

[Craig B]

You're pettifogging.

I've carved granite with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped grinding tips. I've taken cold rolled steel to limestone, and I've used high speed steel tips to carve soft wood. I've also flacked or slabbed flint, and 'sorta' made what looks like an arrowhead. Although my experience is or skill level is not a master's level, I consider my knowledge about stone removal, shaping and polishing above anyone here... I can state with absolute certainty, that the cuts I posted were not carved with bronze and copper, or stone chisels.

Unless you can use those tools to create that site, duplicate them, and mimic the building technique, I'd say it is an unfounded statement to say, "this is how these were built."

I read that GT was the site where wild became, or mutated into domesticated wheat. Do you have a citation?

Yes, a flood, evidenced by the scablands, inundated the world...and toppled a global civilization.Over 10,000 years has erased all but their mighty monuments and seemingly impossible architecture.

Attributing these works to hunter gatherers with stone tools is utterly laughable.

This magic flood left behind the stone tools with which the building stones were evidently shaped, and most wondrous of all, if you are right, it turned cultivated wheat seeds into wild ones. Again, large monuments don't require advanced trchnology, they require social organisation. This has already been attained in ancient times.

 

[Hans]

The fact that there are true stories about real cities does not mean that every story about a city is a true story about a real city.

The fact that Troy was a real place does not make it any more likely that Atlantis or Anch Morpock are real places. There are ways to determine which stories are most likely to be historical and which fictional. The story of Atlantis ticks none of the boxes for the former and all of the boxes for the latter.

Just a point of clarification. There are two issues with Troy which KOA seems to be combining into one.

1. Was there a city located at the point on the world? Yes there are several mounds in that area and from what we can tell there was one and possibility more than one 'city' located in that area. So yes there was a 'troy'.

2. Did this Troy have anything to do with the story told by Homer? Yes, maybe and in some fashion, but that is highly debatable. Most hold that the story told by Homer is just a a good story, all all the people, gods, etc added in for grins and giggles. So did legendary Troy exist, Homer's Troy? Highly improbable. The folks in what is now Greece may have raided or attacked one of those cities at some point but as for the rest of the story, nah.

 

[Hans]

I can state with absolute certainty, that the cuts I posted were not carved with bronze and copper, or stone chisels.

Absolutely certainty huh? lol Okay tells us how they did it and give us a demonstration. If you can't I can then state with absolute certainty that you are not absolutely certain.

Your personal incredulity isn't evidence.....

 

[steenkh]

I've carved granite with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped grinding tips. I've taken cold rolled steel to limestone, and I've used high speed steel tips to carve soft wood. I've also flacked or slabbed flint, and 'sorta' made what looks like an arrowhead. Although my experience is or skill level is not a master's level, I consider my knowledge about stone removal, shaping and polishing above anyone here... I can state with absolute certainty, that the cuts I posted were not carved with bronze and copper, or stone chisels.

Next you'll tell us that the Egyptians were not using stone tools?

 

[Hans]

Here are two interesting images: Perhaps our self proclaimed 'expert' can tell us about them?

The first one just requires him to read the label.....

Now having examined these two images can he tell us what the 'high technology" was that was used to create these and other stones at PP?

 

[Hans]

Next you'll tell us that the Egyptians were not using stone tools?

While he's at that could you also ask him how the Sumerians were carving diorite without iron?

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I've carved granite with a carbide tipped chisel and diamond tipped grinding tips.

The pillars at Göbekli Tepe are limestone. There are still unfinished limestone pillars in the quarry at Göbekli Tepe, showing the construction method.

I have informed you that stone tools for making pillars were found at Göbekli Tepe. You are in denial.

Are you directly denying limestone can be formed into accurate shapes with stone tools?

Here is a photo of the unfinished pillar.

 

[Hans]

The pillars at Göbekli Tepe are limestone. There are still unfinished limestone pillars in the quarry at Göbekli Tepe, showing the construction method.

I have informed you that stone tools for making pillars were found at Göbekli Tepe. You are in denial.

Are you directly denying limestone can be formed into accurate shapes with stone tools?

Here is a photo of the unfinished pillar.

To add to that is this description of the quarry and the methods probably used to cut them out and move them.

https://tepetelegrams.wordpress.com...-making-and-moving-monoliths-at-gobekli-tepe/

he location for the quarries was not chosen without reason. The limestone surrounding Göbekli Tepe is banked, strata of about 0.60 – 1.50 m thickness are divided by fault lines. This means that you just have to dig around a work piece, not also beneath it. As limestone goes, the material at Göbekli Tepe is pretty hard and cristalline, and there are no carstic phenomena. Which means that it is a first class raw material for sculpting and masonry. Even the hardest limestone is however so soft that it can easily be worked by flint tools.

Ethnographic records from the early 20th century report that on the Indonesian island of Nias 525 men were involved in hauling a megalith of 4 cubic meters (considerably smaller than at GT) over a distance of 3 km (considerably more than at GT) to its final location in 3 days using a wooden sledge (Schröder 1917). That such a large number of participants is not necessarily caused by the labour involved exclusively, shows another example from Indonesia. In Kodi, West Sumba, the transport of the stones themselves used for the construction of megalithic tombs is ritualised and asks for a large number of people involved as witnesses (Hoskins 1986).

 

[Matthew Ellard]

I now ask King of America some direct questions.

1) Can King of America explain why his flood only removed advanced metal tools, as he claimed existed, but only left behind stone tools at Göbekli Tepe, which have been used elsewhere to make straight limestone pillars?

2) Can King of America explain why his flood only removed all evidence of advanced agriculture (selective bred grain strains), as he claimed existed, but only leave behind hard evidence of the known wild strains in Göbekli Tepe's beer vats?

3) If the motifs and construction of Göbekli Tepe are found in nearby, later, archaeological sites, does King of America claim the hunter gatherers of Göbekli Tepe were also wiped out in this flood? If so, when?

 

[Hans]

I now ask King of America some direct questions.

1) Can King of America explain why his flood only removed advanced metal tools, as he claimed existed, but only left behind stone tools at Göbekli Tepe, which have been used elsewhere to make straight limestone pillars?

2) Can King of America explain why his flood only removed all evidence of advanced agriculture (selective bred grain strains), as he claimed existed, but only leave behind hard evidence of the known wild strains in Göbekli Tepe's beer vats?

3) If the motifs and construction of Göbekli Tepe are found in nearby, later, archaeological sites, does King of America claim the hunter gatherers of Göbekli Tepe were also wiped out in this flood? If so, when?

Yes Nevali Cori demonstrates a number of remarkable similarities to GT.

Map showing the location of GT to NC and a number of other sites that may have had a connection to GT

Pillars at Nevali Cori similar to GT

 

[King of the Americas]

... Again, large monuments don't require advanced trchnology, they require social organisation. This has already been attained in ancient times.

Good grief...seriously, get a helmet. I am concerned for your safety.

"Organization" = agriculture.

Historians believed the we began as hunter gathers, THEN became organized into large settlements that demanded a more stable food source.

GT is evidence that 12,500 we were NOT just hunting and gathering but later reverted to it.

 

[King of the Americas]

Next you'll tell us that the Egyptians were not using stone tools?

Not just stone tools.

 

[King of the Americas]

Here are two interesting images: Perhaps our self proclaimed 'expert' can tell us about them?

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/Dssmx1H.jpg[/qimg]

The first one just requires him to read the label.....



[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/3azFq4G.jpg[/qimg]


Now having examined these two images can he tell us what the 'high technology" was that was used to create these and other stones at PP?

I don't know anything about those stones, their make up, or design.

Maybe you could tell me what kind of stone it was, then I could say what would be required to form or shape it.

 

[King of the Americas]

While he's at that could you also ask him how the Sumerians were carving diorite without iron?

Interesting...post some images.

 

[King of the Americas]

The pillars at Göbekli Tepe are limestone. There are still unfinished limestone pillars in the quarry at Göbekli Tepe, showing the construction method.

I have informed you that stone tools for making pillars were found at Göbekli Tepe. You are in denial.

Are you directly denying limestone can be formed into accurate shapes with stone tools?

Here is a photo of the unfinished pillar.

For the love of bacon, I said the images I posted for Puma Punku were not carved with bronze, coper, or stone hammers without a written language.

GT is evidence for civilization. Puma Punku is evidence of a vanished technology

 

[King of the Americas]

Yes Nevali Cori demonstrates a number of remarkable similarities to GT.

Map showing the location of GT to NC and a number of other sites that may have had a connection to GT

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/bVGN8fu.jpg[/qimg]

Pillars at Nevali Cori similar to GT

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/G6zH97W.jpg[/qimg]

Similarities...?

Question, are the Great Pyramid and the Pyramid of the Sun similar? Does this similarity indicate a connection?

 

[King of the Americas]

AND...I am "King of the Americas" as in Ruler of the Western Hemisphere...not "King of America"

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I am not saying GT was wiped out by the flood. The flood date merely shows where GT began to decline, and the monuments began their creative difficulty.

 

[Craig B]

Good grief...seriously, get a helmet. I am concerned for your safety.

"Organization" = agriculture.

Historians believed the we began as hunter gathers, THEN became organized into large settlements that demanded a more stable food source.

GT is evidence that 12,500 we were NOT just hunting and gathering but later reverted to it.

No it isn't. Your evidence is drivel, and one of your monuments is the same age the cathedral in Constantinople, not from the ice age.

The course of progress was this. Hunting with no mass organisation > agriculture with mass organisation (and monuments) > industrial technology > advanced technology. Your notions of floods ending all agriculture and it being reinvented later is manifest tosh.

 

[King of the Americas]

No it isn't. Your evidence is drivel, and one of your monuments is the same age the cathedral in Constantinople, not from the ice age.

The course of progress was this. Hunting with no mass organisation > agriculture with mass organisation (and monuments) > industrial technology > advanced technology. Your notions of floods ending all agriculture and it being reinvented later is manifest tosh.

MY evidence...? I have not been to, or studied GT.

Nor is that the timeline the video discusses.

Please address the actual evidence presented here for discussion, and leave 'me' out of your rebuttal.