Francis Scott Key in Baltimore - vandalized

[ponderingturtle]

I always thought the "hireling and slave" reference was to the British army. I've heard other references to the subjects of kings being slaves. The current national anthem of Ireland refers to English people as slaves.

I suppose it is possible that Key was referring to runaway slaves who had joined the British army.

http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/29/star-spangled-banner-and-slavery/

The colonial marines who were escaped slaves did participate in the battle he was writing about, so why wouldn't it be seen as glorifying in the deaths of the escaped slaves?

 

[ponderingturtle]

It's probably just a matter of time.

Slavery is a big part of our history. It should not be hidden, nor should it be celebrated. Monuments and statues of slave holders should not be torn down, they should be modified to explain the times that these people lived in, which were vastly different than today, and how we don't live in those times any more, etc.

And the ones glorifying their fight against abolition and integration what do we do with those?

 

[LTC8K6]

And the ones glorifying their fight against abolition and integration what do we do with those?

We have rational and calm discussions about them and decide the best course of action.

We don't violently protest them, or damage them, or use them to promote an agenda, etc.

Francis Scott Key lived in a completely different world than the one we live in, and he wrote the banner during a war.

 

[ponderingturtle]

We have rational and calm discussions about them and decide the best course of action.

We don't violently protest them, or damage them, or use them to promote an agenda, etc.

Francis Scott Key lived in a completely different world than the one we live in, and he wrote the banner during a war.

And tried to throw people in prison for having abolitionist literature. Just like everyone in those days.

 

[LTC8K6]

And tried to throw people in prison for having abolitionist literature. Just like everyone in those days.

That was apparently a crime in those days.

 

[ponderingturtle]

That was apparently a crime in those days.

And show the true contempt america has always held free speech in.

 

[LTC8K6]

And show the true contempt america has always held free speech in.

Key was the District Attorney, and it was his job to prosecute crimes.

The case seems to have been a libel case.

Perhaps some context?

https://www.loc.gov/resource/rbcmisc.lst0090/?sp=1

 

[C_Felix]

And of course beating and killing runaway slaves was a good thing to be celebrated in the national anthem. He also was a staunch anti abolitionist like all true americans.

And that line specifically deals with a group of escaped slaves fighting for the british.

Is stating that this happened, celebrating it?
Is stating the Holocaust happened, celebrating it?

I'm offering no opinion on good, bad, right, and/or wrong. FSK stated that it happened. I do not see him offering an opinion on good, bad, right, and/or wrong.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Is stating that this happened, celebrating it?
Is stating the Holocaust happened, celebrating it?

I'm offering no opinion on good, bad, right, and/or wrong. FSK stated that it happened. I do not see him offering an opinion on good, bad, right, and/or wrong.

So the entire star spangled banner never endorses anything now? In context is is celebrating the deaths of the colonial marines.

 

[Fizil]

Honestly, who the hell even knows the national anthem beyond the first verse? If this really bothers people just change it, who gives a crap about what the author originally wrote. Hell, if we are modifying the anthem, as an atheist, I object to the last verse.

 

[Gilbert Syndrome]

Seriously, I think these causes are coming up because the activists have nothing else to complain about.

How else are they gonna fill the time between doobs, cleaning their Occupy! masks and having their dreadlocks tightened with superglue?

 

[Sherkeu]

http://www.snopes.com/2016/08/29/star-spangled-banner-and-slavery/

The colonial marines who were escaped slaves did participate in the battle he was writing about, so why wouldn't it be seen as glorifying in the deaths of the escaped slaves?

As I understand it, there was black and white fighting on both sides. Slaves and Freedmen fought on both sides. This particular regiment of escaped slaves were recruited by the British and has done some seriously brutal damage at a battle just before the Baltimore attack, allowing the British to get to Washington and burn it down. So, saying Key relished the idea that these slaves on the British side, and the mercenaries with them, were struck down is likely true.
But that is war, not social justice!

The U.S. also took that stanza out long ago as deference to the British but I guess you cannot separate out that it was written and who wrote it.

 

[Mumbles]

Honestly, who the hell even knows the national anthem beyond the first verse?

A lot of people.

This was inviting a total mess. And now it's here.

 

[ponderingturtle]

As I understand it, there was black and white fighting on both sides. Slaves and Freedmen fought on both sides. This particular regiment of escaped slaves were recruited by the British and has done some seriously brutal damage at a battle just before the Baltimore attack, allowing the British to get to Washington and burn it down. So, saying Key relished the idea that these slaves on the British side, and the mercenaries with them, were struck down is likely true.
But that is war, not social justice!

The U.S. also took that stanza out long ago as deference to the British but I guess you cannot separate out that it was written and who wrote it.

This is about who wrote it and what he wrote. This is about a statue of Francis Scott Key so his meanings and text are what is important.

 

[Darat]

The local Taliban in training.

But seriously, are you going to quibble over whether the vandals want to tear down the statue, or just deface it with spray paint?

My comment was more a "and so what so some people say X, and other people say Y". Lots of people say lots of things, lots of people make demands and so on, it's pretty much what a society is - a way of us all sort-of muddling through.

 

[Meadmaker]

My comment was more a "and so what so some people say X, and other people say Y". Lots of people say lots of things, lots of people make demands and so on, it's pretty much what a society is - a way of us all sort-of muddling through.

Ok.

I wish the demanders would cut out the spray paint. And if they want to take out a statue, at least offer to pay for a replacement statue. And not one of those hideous "industrial" style sculptures with abstract metal shapes. They're ugly.

 

[pgwenthold]

Ok.

I wish the demanders would cut out the spray paint. And if they want to take out a statue, at least offer to pay for a replacement statue. And not one of those hideous "industrial" style sculptures with abstract metal shapes. They're ugly.

Leave the spray paint on it.

We don't want to whitewash history, right? However, the monument itself does that. I was not aware there was even a controversy over the SSB, because no one ever talked about that verse. Talk about whitewashing history!

The vandalism is a sign that all is not necessarily so clean about Key and the SSB. Therefore, I think it needs to be left there as a reminder of history.

I would think that all the "we can't remove statues because that is erasing history" people would agree, don't you?

(don't bother answering it)

 

[mumblethrax]

If this really bothers people just change it, who gives a crap about what the author originally wrote.

Good advice for most countries, but the US is absurdly hidebound about its public symbols. We can't even replace Andrew "Trail of Tears" Jackson with Harriet "Good Guy" Tubman on our currency. It's difficult to imagine how that process (changing the national anthem) would even work.

As for Francis Scott Key...he knows what he did.

 

[LTC8K6]

Good advice for most countries, but the US is absurdly hidebound about its public symbols. We can't even replace Andrew "Trail of Tears" Jackson with Harriet "Good Guy" Tubman on our currency. It's difficult to imagine how that process (changing the national anthem) would even work.

As for Francis Scott Key...he knows what he did.

IIRC, Tubman was never going to replace Jackson. She was just going to be added to the bill somewhere.

In any case:

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/350095-bipartisan-bill-would-force-treasury-to-put-tubman-on-20

Bipartisan bill would force Treasury to put Tubman on $20 bill

 

[mumblethrax]

IIRC, Tubman was never going to replace Jackson. She was just going to be added to the bill somewhere.

She was going to replace him as the primary figure on the obverse, with Jackson appearing on the reverse.

http://thehill.com/policy/finance/350095-bipartisan-bill-would-force-treasury-to-put-tubman-on-20

Bipartisan bill would force Treasury to put Tubman on $20 bill

The fact that something so minor and obvious requires an act of Congress (which is by no means guaranteed to pass) is evidence, I think, of the absurd barriers to changing our national symbols.