nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[ponderingturtle]

I wasn't suggesting that he wouldn't be able to get a job in the ambulance racket at all, just that it wouldn't be as easy as finding another cop shop to take him in, since they would probably view his macho antics as a point in his favor.

And in my experience it would be as easy or easier. Everyone is always looking to hire more medics.

 

[rwguinn]

And I'm detecting some similarity here.

Can you see it?

'Orders' are derived frominterpretation of 'rules', and Payne was following a set of 'rules' (they're just an unwritten set that happens to differ from the set the SLCPD tells us they're following). That's the underlying problem here.

...

FTFY
Given that the Police Interpretation of the rules has the postulate "We are right"

 

[Nessie]

.....

UK police forces used to be organised at the town level ( according to a close colleague who's the son of a retired police sergeant) but they changed after the Victorian era.

.......

Where I live, the old police station, which dated back to 1913, has the county police name engraved into the stonework. It was a county force with jurisdiction over the shire, with its own Chief Constable. The local large town had its own "burgh" police force. If the local regional councils merged, so would the local police forces.

In the mid 1950s a central police college was opened, it ids where all Scottish police officers went to be trained, no matter which force they were in.

In the 1970s, the numerous Scottish police forces were reorganised along with the new regions; Grampian, Lothian and Borders, Strathclyde, Fife etc. They all became county forces, with the counties being made of groups of the original shires and burghs. The smallest was still a police force of just over 500 officers.

A few years back, they all merged to make Police Scotland. One force covers the whole country. The cost savings have been huge, for example, instead of about 40 control rooms, there are now only 3 or 4.

If the history of policing in Scotland shows the USA anything, it is how important merging training was and that all officers should benefit from centralised, quality training.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

The cop is a paramedic, he should also lose his licence for this.

Nitpick: Paramedics and EMTs are certified, not licensed. They have to work under a licensed professional like an MD or a nurse. Unless some charges are forthcoming, or a lawsuit by the patient, it's unlikely his certification would be revoked. But he might be put on probation or have some other restrictions placed on the certification.

It's moot though if no one would hire him now.

 

[Bob001]

......
A few years back, they all merged to make Police Scotland. One force covers the whole country. The cost savings have been huge, for example, instead of about 40 control rooms, there are now only 3 or 4.
......

How does that work in practice? Do cops transfer freely from one region to another? Or do they identify with and stay in one geographic area? I would suspect policing needs in, say, Glasgow are different from a village in the far north. Are there regional conflicts within the department?

The U.S. has far too many police departments, many small, badly trained and ill-equipped. They should be merged. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine how operations like the NYPD or the LAPD could be function if the top bosses weren't even based in their cities.

 

[jimbob]

How does that work in practice? Do cops transfer freely from one region to another? Or do they identify with and stay in one geographic area? I would suspect policing needs in, say, Glasgow are different from a village in the far north. Are there regional conflicts within the department?

The U.S. has far too many police departments, many small, badly trained and ill-equipped. They should be merged. On the other hand, it's hard to imagine how operations like the NYPD or the LAPD could be function if the top bosses weren't even based in their cities.

Large cities tend to have their own police forces, so Greater Manchester, or the Met (London), for example. The LAPD and NYPD would be analogous. I'm not sure how Police Scotland deals with personnel but there has to be more scope for promotion in, say Glasgow or Edinburgh, than the Outer Hebrides

Where I live, Derbyshire, in 2006, there was serious planning to consolidate the force with four other East Midland forces to get better economies of scale, as the forces are quite small; for context Derbyshire Constabulary has about 3,500 employees, of whom just over 2000 are officers. There is cooperation amongst the forces to share overheads.



Derbyshire Constabulary has 3,000 employees, to give an idea of a smallish force.

 

[Bob001]

....
Derbyshire Constabulary has 3,000 employees, to give an idea of a smallish force.

In the U.S. a 2,000-officer force would be among the largest. There are around 18,000 independent U.S. police departments (no one even seems to know the precise number), and some only have a handful of guys.
http://www.politifact.com/punditfac...es-ramsey/how-many-police-departments-are-us/

 

[The Norseman]

Nitpick: Paramedics and EMTs are certified, not licensed. They have to work under a licensed professional like an MD or a nurse. Unless some charges are forthcoming, or a lawsuit by the patient, it's unlikely his certification would be revoked.

I couldn't find a "Jeff Payne" in either the national EMT/para registry nor the Utah state EMT/para registry. Either he's registered under a different first/middle name or he's already been revoked.

The medical field, unlike the police, tend to respond to complaints far more quickly and efficiently, but I don't know for certain in this case.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

I couldn't find a "Jeff Payne" in either the national EMT/para registry nor the Utah state EMT/para registry. Either he's registered under a different first/middle name or he's already been revoked.

The medical field, unlike the police, tend to respond to complaints far more quickly and efficiently, but I don't know for certain in this case.

He may not be an EMT or paramedic. In this state there are a half dozen certifications one can get from phlebotomist to someone who can give a TB skin test. Looks like Utah also has specific phlebotomy certification.

As for the response, no official licensing body is going to act on a news event. There would need to have been a complaint filed. And that could have been done, but we don't know from the news accounts. There is of course, apparent grounds for revoking his certification. Might also be a misdemeanor.

(6) willfully and intentionally making any false or fraudulent interpretation, statement, or representation in the performance of the certified phlebotomist's duties;
(7) any conduct contrary to the recognized standards and ethics of the profession of a certified phlebotomist;

 

[Jodie]

But it isn't their job to confront some armed lunatic kidnapping someone.

One would think.

 

[The Norseman]

He may not be an EMT or paramedic.

The most recent article linked to described his first being an EMT, working his way up to a paramedic and then moving to the police department while maintaining part-time work on an ambulance crew. The ambulance company has since fired him as stated in that article, so I thought I'd follow up and do a quick search just for anyone's information to see if he's still authorized to perform EMS medical care.

 

[Bob001]

The most recent article linked to described his first being an EMT, working his way up to a paramedic and then moving to the police department while maintaining part-time work on an ambulance crew. The ambulance company has since fired him as stated in that article, so I thought I'd follow up and do a quick search just for anyone's information to see if he's still authorized to perform EMS medical care.

Are people required to be certified to work for a commercial ambulance service? They're not government employees, and they probably do more transport than emergency response. They're not answering 911 calls. Could the company just hire licensed drivers if it wanted to?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Are people required to be certified to work for a commercial ambulance service? They're not government employees, and they probably do more transport than emergency response. They're not answering 911 calls. Could the company just hire licensed drivers if it wanted to?

Depends on the ambulance service. It's the procedures the person needs certification to do. If the service doesn't provide the procedures then one wouldn't need certification.

Usually ambulance services offer BLS - basic life support, or ALS - advanced life support. ALS is going to need employees with at least some certification, usually EMT or greater.

 

[The Norseman]

Are people required to be certified to work for a commercial ambulance service? They're not government employees, and they probably do more transport than emergency response. They're not answering 911 calls. Could the company just hire licensed drivers if it wanted to?

Yup, Ginger got it; just driving doesn't require any medical training or certification, but performing any medical services does require it — from the state or county or national level, depending. During transport, if any medical issue arose, the ex-para would not be able to perform any medically-related duties anyway, so really, what's the point? He'd probably have no problem getting hired with another police department even after this fiasco, so there's that.

 

[ponderingturtle]

One would think.

The supreme court has rule that police never need to endanger themselves by acting in the defense of the populace. And when the criminal is a cop count yourself lucky if they are even willing to testify against the fellow officer.

 

[ponderingturtle]

Depends on the ambulance service. It's the procedures the person needs certification to do. If the service doesn't provide the procedures then one wouldn't need certification.

Usually ambulance services offer BLS - basic life support, or ALS - advanced life support. ALS is going to need employees with at least some certification, usually EMT or greater.

In NY at least you need an EMT on it to even be counted as an ambulance. ALS requires a full paramedic. If you are not able to provide care you are an ambulette.

This does mean that if you require a stretcher for transport you need an EMT, even if there is no need of medical care.

 

[zooterkin]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of a hospital having its own police force.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of a hospital having its own police force.

They don't exactly. They are associated with a university that has a police force. And the cops might be technically state cops.

 

[Delphic Oracle]

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of a hospital having its own police force.

It's not the hospital's, it's the university to which the hospital is also attached.

Even as "used to" that concept as I am, I also cannot wrap my head around it.

I even work for one in the mornings. A coworker and I were recently discussing the dubious legality of faculty/staff and permit-required parking spaces along some of the streets. The streets still belong to the city, this was reaffirmed when citations for violating the campus smoking ban on sidewalks were tossed out a few years back. Campus police still regularly issue parking tickets on those very same streets, however.

 

[Jim_MDP]

(eta: see my next post... I misunderstood yours.)

I'm still trying to get my head around the idea of a hospital having its own police force.

Were they armed? I honestly didn't notice on my single pass through the video?

But I think you meant "armed security"... and over he at least, that doesn't equate to "police force".

You have private security, in hospitals and elsewhere... we have both armed and unarmed depending on the situation.

You, and much of the world, have police and/or military in your airports routinely carrying military style semi-auto rifles. I don't think we have that over here on a daily basis, and I would find it extraordinarily disconcerting (at first, at least).

On the flip side... I can, have and do stand in conversation with our armed police... and never even think about the sidearm they are carrying (except back in the day... when I was shooting, and might have the occasional short convo about what model their department issued and how they liked them).
Normally though... it doesn't even merit a thought. Different social norms, eh?