nurse cuffed by cop for not breaking law

[wollery]

Payne was only obeying orders. He whole department needs correcting.

Oh, he was only obeying orders!

Oh, well, that's all right then.

Clearly he did nothing wrong.

Because it would have been perfectly okay for him to shoot her if that's what his supervisor ordered him to do.

Only following orders never has been, is not now, and never will be, an excuse or defence for committing a crime, particularly when the person "only following orders" knows that they are doing something illegal.

Payne knew that he had no legal standing to get blood drawn from the victim, he was recorded saying as much.

He was wrong.
He knew he was wrong.
He was shown a legal document that demonstrated he was wrong.
His partner knew he was wrong.

"He was only following orders" is a disgusting attempt to pass the buck of responsibility for an illegal act.

People who "only follow orders" should never be given any form of authority over other people.

They should certainly never be allowed to become law enforcement officers.

 

[ddt]

Payne was only obeying orders.

I don't want to Godwin the thread, but that's called the Nuremberg defence, for a reason. It doesn't absolve him from his responsibility, the more where he admits on camera himself that those orders are illegal ("I have no probable cause").

He whole department needs correcting.

I agree wholeheartedly with that. The ones who gave him those illegal orders should be taken to task for that too.

 

[SteveL]

Oh, he was only obeying orders!

Oh, well, that's all right then.

Clearly he did nothing wrong.

Because it would have been perfectly okay for him to shoot her if that's what his supervisor ordered him to do.

Only following orders never has been, is not now, and never will be, an excuse or defence for committing a crime, particularly when the person "only following orders" knows that they are doing something illegal.

Payne knew that he had no legal standing to get blood drawn from the victim, he was recorded saying as much.

He was wrong.
He knew he was wrong.
He was shown a legal document that demonstrated he was wrong.
His partner knew he was wrong.

"He was only following orders" is a disgusting attempt to pass the buck of responsibility for an illegal act.

People who "only follow orders" should never be given any form of authority over other people.
They should certainly never be allowed to become law enforcement officers.

Does this also mean that people who "only follow the rules" should never be allowed to become law enforcement officers?

No me missing any thing

"And I understand what your policy is. I'm trying to tell you what I need legally and your policy right now is contravening what I need legally...there's a very bad habit up here of your policy interfering with my law" Lieutenant James Tracy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xm6Y3Rl9u1Q

Payne was only obeying orders. He whole department needs correcting.

Noztradamus, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think that you're defending Payne, but rather are saying that there are a lot of other people that need to be straightened out, too.

I particularly like the "my law" part. In other words " I don't give a **** about the actual law, my officers are gonna do what ever they want to."

ETA: Is it at all surprising that Payne did what he did, when he was probably expecting this kind of support?

 

[SteveL]

Prosecutor asks FBI to investigate:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...osecutors-ask-fbi-to-help-investigate-police/

From the link -

In response to the incident, the University of Utah Hospital imposed new restrictions on law enforcement, barring them from patient care areas and from direct contact with nurses. “This will not happen again,” Gordon Crabtree, interim chief executive of the hospital, said at a Monday news conference.

The situation is kinda crappy when the hospital administration sees a need to treat law enforcement like the wild animals that some of them seem to be.

 

[Dr. Keith]

From the link -
The situation is kinda crappy when the hospital administration sees a need to treat law enforcement like the wild animals that some of them seem to be.

Really, it is just stripping them of their privilege. Neither you or I could walk back there and screw with a nurse either. So they aren't treating them like wild animals, just reducing them to the same status as everyone else. Which is something LEOs are not used to.

 

[SteveL]

Really, it is just stripping them of their privilege. Neither you or I could walk back there and screw with a nurse either. So they aren't treating them like wild animals, just reducing them to the same status as everyone else. Which is something LEOs are not used to.

That's the wild animal part I was referring to. And, you and I can still interact with nurses, while the SLCPD can't.

 

[Dr. Keith]

That's the wild animal part I was referring to. And, you and I can still interact with nurses, while the SLCPD can't.

Really, I doubt I could walk into an an ER and go back to the nurses station and start asking for assistance. It has been some time since I was in an ER, but my foggy memory is that they only allowed patients and relatives of the patient beyond the waiting area.

 

[SteveL]

Really, I doubt I could walk into an an ER and go back to the nurses station and start asking for assistance. It has been some time since I was in an ER, but my foggy memory is that they only allowed patients and relatives of the patient beyond the waiting area.

Where did I say you could? You are twisting my words to imply something that I didn't say. Again (from the link that I quote before) -

the University of Utah Hospital imposed new restrictions on law enforcement, barring them from patient care areas and from direct contact with nurses.

 

[Dr. Keith]

Where did I say you could? You are twisting my words to imply something that I didn't say. Again (from the link that I quote before) -

Sorry, not trying to twist your words. My assumption is that the nurses are in the patient care area, not the waiting room.

Based on that assumption I just don't think I could have direct contact with nurses in an ER if I were not a patient or relative of one.

Maybe the admitting person at the front desk is a nurse, so maybe I'm wrong. Like I said, it has been some time since I was actually in an ER and I didn't ask people for their credentials.

 

[Ranb]

People who "only follow orders" should never be given any form of authority over other people.

Does this also mean that people who "only follow the rules" should never be allowed to become law enforcement officers?

There can be a big difference between following orders and following the rules. Hopefully all orders the police receive are lawful. Not in this case though.

 

[SteveL]

Sorry, not trying to twist your words. My assumption is that the nurses are in the patient care area, not the waiting room.

Based on that assumption I just don't think I could have direct contact with nurses in an ER if I were not a patient or relative of one.

Maybe the admitting person at the front desk is a nurse, so maybe I'm wrong. Like I said, it has been some time since I was actually in an ER and I didn't ask people for their credentials.

My experience has been with the local small town hospitals in my area, and it was not unheard of for people to just walk into the treatment areas. As a matter of fact, when my father was in a nursing home a few years ago, he was taken to the hospital ER several times. I had no trouble just walking in to see him, although it did become apparent why I was there very quickly.

The last time I was treated in an ER (between 5 and 10 years ago), the waiting 'room' was the space just inside the entrance. Maybe it's changed, now.

 

[jimbob]

Yes, although of course the cop should also have had enough nous to realise that he was demanding an illegal act. Which again reflects on recruitment and training in the department.
ETA, and there is the question about his suitability for the job given his reaction.

I expect idiots who want to go on power trips to want to become police officers.

I also expect the police forces to realise this and have recruitment and oversight procedures to watch out for this and prevent them.

 

[Monza]

4. The biggest problem was that the cop was not in control of himself let alone in control of the situation. He lost his temper and his self-control and was an embarrassment to his colleagues and his profession.

I expect idiots who want to go on power trips to want to become police officers.

I agree with this and it is a major problem. My brother has been been in law enforcement (FBI and ICE) for 20 years. He has made several arrests and I believe only once did it get physical when the guy fled and had to be chased down. Otherwise, most arrests are handled civilly, especially in instances where the 'crime' includes no violence.

For a nurse who was not presenting a physical threat, there was absolutely no need for the manner in which Payne placed her under arrest. Quickly grabbing her and forcing her outside was simply a power play. Had he really wanted to place her under arrest and file charges, he would have said calmly, "Ma'am, I am going to place you under arrest. Please turn around, ...." etc. Physical force would only have been necessary had she resisted.

But I think it is clear that he had no intention of actually charging her. He just wanted to display his power over her and intimidate her. He is wholly unsuited for law enforcement.

 

[Bob001]

I expect idiots who want to go on power trips to want to become police officers.

I also expect the police forces to realise this and have recruitment and oversight procedures to watch out for this and prevent them.

One problem is that at a time when most responsible entry-level jobs require a college degree (whether or not they all should is a whole different discussion), most police departments only require a high-school education or a GED. Cops are being asked to apply complex legal concepts in the moment with limited formal education. Add to that the penchant for giving priority to veterans, who have proven their ability to accept training and follow orders, but who also have learned to divide the world instantly into "friend and foe." Police departments could start by requiring a legitimate college degree for applicants, and de-emphasizing combat experience.

 

[luchog]

One problem is that at a time when most responsible entry-level jobs require a college degree (whether or not they all should is a whole different discussion), most police departments only require a high-school education or a GED. Cops are being asked to apply complex legal concepts in the moment with limited formal education. Add to that the penchant for giving priority to veterans, who have proven their ability to accept training and follow orders, but who also have learned to divide the world instantly into "friend and foe." Police departments could start by requiring a legitimate college degree for applicants, and de-emphasizing combat experience.

Actually, the veterans are among the better cops, because they're also trained to situational awareness and many have experience working with civilian populations in war zones.

The biggest problem is that they want dumb cops because dumb cops follow orders unquestioningly and don't push back against racist or other discriminatory practices. And the US Supreme Court has ruled it legal to discrimininate against intelligent applications.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/court-oks-barring-high-iqs-cops/story?id=95836

 

[quadraginta]

<snip>

"He was only following orders" is a disgusting attempt to pass the buck of responsibility for an illegal act.

People who "only follow orders" should never be given any form of authority over other people.
They should certainly never be allowed to become law enforcement officers.

Does this also mean that people who "only follow the rules" should never be allowed to become law enforcement officers?

<snip>

"only follow orders"

"only follow the rules"
​

I am detecting a slight discrepancy here.

Can you see it? Or do you need it explained to you?

Perhaps you inadvertently quoted some other source than the post you included in yours and it is an unintentional error?

If the out-of-control cop had followed the rules instead of his orders we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

[quadraginta]

I agree with this and it is a major problem. My brother has been been in law enforcement (FBI and ICE) for 20 years. He has made several arrests and I believe only once did it get physical when the guy fled and had to be chased down. Otherwise, most arrests are handled civilly, especially in instances where the 'crime' includes no violence.

For a nurse who was not presenting a physical threat, there was absolutely no need for the manner in which Payne placed her under arrest. Quickly grabbing her and forcing her outside was simply a power play. Had he really wanted to place her under arrest and file charges, he would have said calmly, "Ma'am, I am going to place you under arrest. Please turn around, ...." etc. Physical force would only have been necessary had she resisted.

I was under the impression he clearly told her he was arresting her while he was manhandling her into handcuffs and detaining her in his squad car.

But I think it is clear that he had no intention of actually charging her. He just wanted to display his power over her and intimidate her. He is wholly unsuited for law enforcement.

it's kinda difficult to be sure what he actually intended. But in the larger view being arrested, handcuffed, and detained generally implies being charged with something.

They may not continue with pressing charges, but I don't think they can arrest and detain people just for the hell of it, with no cause or provocation (regardless of how bogus or contrived). That cause is what they are being charged with at the time of arrest.

 

[jimbob]

They may not continue with pressing charges, but I don't think they can arrest and detain people just for the hell of it, with no cause or provocation (regardless of how bogus or contrived). That cause is what they are being charged with at the time of arrest.

In Ferguson the DoJ report gave examples of people being arrested solely for resisting arrest. Which certainly fits with the bogus reason.

I might have a look to see if there were any examples where *no* reason was given.

 

[Mumbles]

In Ferguson the DoJ report gave examples of people being arrested solely for resisting arrest. Which certainly fits with the bogus reason.

I might have a look to see if there were any examples where *no* reason was given.

In cases like Ferguson, the resistance is usually in the form of the supposed criminal not doing whatever it was that the officer was demanding they do, regardless of legality. This has happened to quite a few friends of mine - arrested for "resisting arrest" because they wouldn't obey some random cop who just runs up to them spewing insults and slurs and issuing ridiculous orders.

Same thing here - cop rolls up on the hospital staff, makes a clearly illegal request, and then methodically (don't think he flipped out - this isn't the Philando Castile murder, he was fully in control the entire time) ratchets things up when people don't obey him anyway.

 

[jimbob]

In cases like Ferguson, the resistance is usually in the form of the supposed criminal not doing whatever it was that the officer was demanding they do, regardless of legality. This has happened to quite a few friends of mine - arrested for "resisting arrest" because they wouldn't obey some random cop who just runs up to them spewing insults and slurs and issuing ridiculous orders.

Same thing here - cop rolls up on the hospital staff, makes a clearly illegal request, and then methodically (don't think he flipped out - this isn't the Philando Castile murder, he was fully in control the entire time) ratchets things up when people don't obey him anyway.

Unfortunately I have every reason to believe you; my point was that there is something particularly Kafkaesque about being arrested for resisting arrest with no other reason given. That shows either contempt for rules and law and/or utter idiocy