General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

[Hans]

There is no point in 'countering' complete idiocy. It's just a game with the hasbara ... as every post from the hoaxers demonstrates.

Then why are you on a discussion board if your purpose is to avoid discussion?

That doesn't strike you as being a bit odd?

 

[LemmyCaution]

Had to google them ...

Astonishing. This is basic stuff.

This photo purports to show bodies being cremated in open air pits. They don't purport to show anyone being killed.

So what?

It is well documented that there was a typhus epidemic in Auschwitz in 1942, i.e. no one disputes that prisoners died in large numbers at Auschwitz.

The Sonderkommando photos date from summer 1944, the time of the Hungarian transports to Auschwitz. They have nothing to do with epidemic typhus two years prior.

However, the photo is suspect.

It may surprise you to know that these photos have been studied, discussed, and debated at great length. Didi Huberman, for example, wrote a book-length study of the SK photos, Images in Spite of It All. Here is an HC analysis of the SK photos.

 

[Saggy]

Then why are you on a discussion board if your purpose is to avoid discussion?

That doesn't strike you as being a bit odd?

I regard every post you make as a bit odd , and think that generally a response would be superfluous.

 

[LemmyCaution]

There is no point in 'countering' complete idiocy.

Gee, I find myself doing that with every post you make.

 

[Saggy]

So what?

So they they are in no way evidence of the holohoax. Prisoners died, they may have been cremated outdoors.

It may surprise you to know that these photos have been studied, discussed, and debated at great length.

Surprise me? Hardly. However, the fact is that bodies cannot be cremated in pits. So, the photos are a mystery to me. I'm not interested in the endless idiocy of the holohoax 'scholars', unless they address the issue of cremating a body in a pit.

 

[LemmyCaution]

There is no point in 'countering' complete idiocy. It's just a game with the hasbara ... as every post from the hoaxers demonstrates.

Prove this charge. You have made it several times. What is your evidence? Time for you to make your case on this.

 

[Saggy]

Prove this charge. You have made it several times. What is your evidence? Time for you to make your case on this.

You want me to prove it? No need. You prove it every time you post.

 

[LemmyCaution]

You want me to prove it? No need. You prove it every time you post.

False and defamatory charge, which you cannot support with evidence.

 

[Hans]

I regard every post you make as a bit odd , and think that generally a response would be superfluous.

So in other words you concede you are wrong each time I point out your errors.

Okay that an efficient way to admit being incessantly wrong but you don't seem to be learning anything.

lol

 

[Saggy]

False and defamatory charge, which you cannot support with evidence.

LOL. I withdraw it. Really, you're a prince, and a scholar. How could I have made such a silly mistake

 

[Hans]

However, the fact is that bodies cannot be cremated in pits.

Really so you're saying when my Uncle use to have me help him gather cattle who had frozen to death and burn them - that actually didn't happen?

WOW

 

[Saggy]

Really so you're saying when my Uncle use to have me help him gather cattle who had frozen to death and burn them - that actually didn't happen?

WOW

I'm saying it takes a pyre to cremate a body. The flames have to be below the body, and there has to be a copious supply of o2. If you throw bodies in a pit they cannot be cremated. If you threw bodies in a pit, they stayed in the pit. You cannot cremate anything at the bottom of a pit.

 

[LemmyCaution]

So they they are in no way evidence of the holohoax. Prisoners died, they may have been cremated outdoors.

Of course they are evidence of mass murder. You flounder around trying to find out about these photos you tried to have us believe don't exist, but, as I told you, there is a lot written about these photos, as one can see, for example, in this summary - which provides the context. We have more than just the photos. As you can see from the link, the context is the mass murder of Jews in Birkenau gas chambers - the "gas poisoning action" carried out against Jewish transports by the Auschwitz SS.

Or do you want us to believe that these women were running away from typhus-bearing lice?

Surprise me? Hardly.

Well, you told us you had to google to find out about the photos - and you show absolutely no awareness of them, when and how they were taken, sources on the photos, or secondary literature about them. So, heck yeah, any information we give you about these photos will be a surprise to you.

However, the fact is that bodies cannot be cremated in pits. So, the photos are a mystery to me. I'm not interested in the endless idiocy of the holohoax 'scholars', unless they address the issue of cremating a body in a pit.

Be that as it may, we will discuss the full range of evidence for aspects of the Holocaust whether we leave you behind or not.

 

[LemmyCaution]

LOL. I withdraw it. Really, you're a prince, and a scholar. How could I have made such a silly mistake

Because you made up false charges against me and others to suit your purposes. Easy.

And now you can't even defend the charges you make and so you try being flippant. We all see how you operate.

 

[Belz...]

You want me to prove it? No need. You prove it every time you post.

Pathetic.

 

[Jeffk 1970]

Surprise me? Hardly. However, the fact is that bodies cannot be cremated in pits.

They can't?

So, the photos are a mystery to me. I'm not interested in the endless idiocy of the holohoax 'scholars', unless they address the issue of cremating a body in a pit.

Alrighty, then:

Mattogno had argued that pit burnings were not an effective means of body disposal. He cited a study by H. Frolich in an 1872 German military journal that the attempt to dispose of the bodies of soldiers by opening mass graves and filling them with tar "resulted in charring of the uppermost layer of the corpses, the baking of the intermediate layer, and no effect on the bottom layer." [277] He ignored the fact that the author of the study gave guidelines for the effective disposal of bodies in pits by using gasoline. Frolich wrote that the grave had to be drenched with gasoline in a tar pit. After three hours, 250 to 300 bodies were disposed of. [278]

The Frolich study mentions that this method had been approved of by a Belgian commission. [279] In 1887 Dr. Hugo Erichsen, one the world's leading experts in body disposal in the late 19 th and early 20 th centuries, wrote of the Belgian government's efforts along these lines in a battle in 1814. The individual charged with body disposal was named Creteur.

[Creteur] determined to cover the graves with a layer of chloride of lime, and to pour diluted muriatic acid upon them subsequently. By this means he succeeded in laying bare the topmost layer of the corpses. He then had large quantities of coal poured into the pit... He then had more chloride of lime heaped upon the corpses, and finally had bundles of hay, previously saturated with kerosene thrown into the pit. Creteur declares that from 200 to 300 were consumed within 50 to 60 minutes.... About one fourth of all the contents remained in the pits, consisting of calcined bones and a dry mass. These were again covered with chloride of lime, and the trenches were closed. In this way 45,855 human and equine bodies were disposed of. [280]

Dr. Erichsen then advocated using this technique in time of war. "Under the existing circumstances, I think Creteur's method would be best. By this means, several hundred bodies would be destroyed at once." It stands to reason that if the Belgians could do this in 1814, Germany certainly had the capability to improve on the process 130 years later. Deniers like Mattogno would have people believe that the Germans of World War II were incapable of replicating the achievements of an early 19 th century European country.

http://www.phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

Auschwitz-Monowitz manufactured methanol so there was plenty of fuel.

Only methanol production was begun on a large industrial scale in Auschwitz, in October 1943. Methanol had various applications: as a fuel additive, an important primary product of organic chemistry, a solvent, a stripper, and a methylation agent; it also was used in various ways for catalytic oxidation in the manufacture of plastics. According to a breakdown from the Four Year Plan office of GBChem, in 1944 alone, the last year of the war, I.G. Auschwitz produced a total of 28,998 tons of methanol, accounting for about 15 percent of Germany’s production for that year. The data in this breakdown cover methanol production in 1944 in the plants at Leuna, Waldenburg, Oppau, Heydebreck, and Auschwitz, with a total production of 186,416 tons.[6] Thus the making of methanol by I.G. Auschwitz was of considerable importance to the German war economy, whose fuel production recorded substantial losses due to the strategic airstrikes of the Allies in 1943/44, especially in western Germany.

http://www.wollheim-memorial.de/en/was_sollte_fabrik_produzieren

This is what Methanol is:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

Witnesses report the use of methanol and oil products used as fuel for the flames:

Many of the eyewitnesses to the outdoor burnings at Auschwitz stated that gasoline was used to dispose of the bodies, something that Mattogno did not mention. [281] The Germans used gasoline to dispose of bodies at Bergen-Belsen, [282] Majdanek, [283] and the Operation Reinhard extermination camps. [284] Like Dr.Frolich and the Belgian army in 1814, Sonderkommando Filip Müller addressed the specific problem Mattogno mentioned:

...n the pits the fire would burn only as long as the air could circulate freely between the bodies. As the heap of bodies settled, no air was able to get in from the outside. This meant that we stokers had constantly to pour oil or wood alcohol on the burning corpses...

About fifteen stokers had to place the fuel in the pit and to light and maintain the fire by constantly stoking in between the corpses and pouring oil, wood alcohol and liquid human fat over them. [285]

(See above PHDN link)

Hoess in his book mentions the use of oil waste products and liquid fuel to light the fires and keep them lit.

Is that enough of a discussion for you?

Edited for horrible mistake on my part...I need to go to bed....

 

[Hans]

I'm saying it takes a pyre to cremate a body. The flames have to be below the body, and there has to be a copious supply of o2. If you throw bodies in a pit they cannot be cremated. If you threw bodies in a pit, they stayed in the pit. You cannot cremate anything at the bottom of a pit.

I see and you know that how? We found that little but ash and bone fragments remained if you used enough gasoline. Sometimes some skin of a bottom animal might survive but it was rare.

I see Jeffk 1970 has put out a more detailed discussion of this.

 

[Cosmic Yak]

Then it will be easy for you to link to evidence for this. Unless, that is, you accept that this is an accurate description of your methodology:



Spot on from where I'm sitting.
How about it, Saggy? Just one Holocaust victim describing themselves as a degenerate. We can look at how commonplace this is later.

Saggy, I know you're busy, what with all that evidence to ignore and questions to dodge, but this one should be easy.
Show one example, from all those 'commonplace' ones, of a Holocaust survivor describing themselves as a degenerate. This will stop you being regarded as a bigoted liar, at least with regard to this particular question, and justify your (albeit grammatically incorrect) usage of this epithet.

 

[Dash80]

Had to google them ... yes I've seen this photo berfore and a few others like it ..

[qimg]https://i.imgur.com/pnAFo7p.jpg[/qimg]

This photo purports to show bodies being cremated in open air pits. They don't purport to show anyone being killed. It is well documented that there was a typhus epidemic in Auschwitz in 1942, i.e. no one disputes that prisoners died in large numbers at Auschwitz.

However, the photo is suspect. In order to cremate a body it must be exposed to intense heat for a long period of time, and it requires a pyre or grate so that the fire can burn beneath the body, whereas this photo seems to show bodies being cremated in a pit, which is a physical impossibility. So, I don't know what to make of it.

Unfortunately for you Saggy there is supporting evidence that the Sonderkammando photos depicted the mass murder of arriving Jews.

Who says, by the way, that bodies cannot be burned inside pits? You?

 

[Saggy]

They can't?




Alrighty, then:



http://www.phdn.org/archives/holocaust-history.org/auschwitz/body-disposal/

Auschwitz-Monowitz manufactured methanol so there was plenty of fuel.



http://www.wollheim-memorial.de/en/was_sollte_fabrik_produzieren

This is what Methanol is:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methanol

Witnesses report the use of methanol and oil products used as fuel for the flames:



(See above PHDN link)

Hoess in his book mentions the use of oil waste products and liquid fuel to light the fires and keep them lit.

Is that enough of a discussion for you?

Edited for horrible mistake on my part...I need to go to bed....

Interesting, but idiotic.

"German military journal that the attempt to dispose of the bodies of soldiers by opening mass graves and filling them with tar "resulted in charring of the uppermost layer of the corpses, the baking of the intermediate layer, and no effect on the bottom layer."

That sounds about right. But we're off into fantasy land with ... "filling them with tar" ....

"Frolich wrote ..... "

Frolick could have written that the sky was filled with wild geese, but ... where is the evidence. We need evidence, not testimony.

"[Creteur] determined to cover the graves with a layer of chloride of lime, and to pour diluted muriatic acid upon them subsequently"

Chloride of lime, muriatic acid, ..... not cremation. But, even so, what evidence is cited in these reports.

"In this way 45,855 human and equine bodies were disposed of. "

Evidence given?