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Ed Dueling protests spark state of emergency in Virginia.

Also, full disclosure: I'm taking the tone I am because I have no interest in giving the right constructive criticism. The left had an opportunity to position itself against the most hated man (and ideology) on the planet and were just going to completely **** the dog, it seems.

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This was being chanted universally across dozens of city blocks and scattered pockets of violent exchanges? Did everyone have their team colors on?

My experience covers progressive civil unrest in the past 10-15 years. Yeah, my overall take is its a damn 3-ring circus.

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I agree that the Friday night march could not be mistaken for anything but a racist event.

Now, whether Saturday was obviously the same is harder to say. All of the images I've seen made it look like a racist event, not a defense of some statue, and of course the advertising was the same. Were there some non-negligible number of non-racist participants interested in preserving statues? If so, they didn't show up in any media I've seen (not even defending themselves by uploading videos to youtube, far as I know).

I tend to think that all of the protesters were aware that this was a white nationalist event. I don't think it was quite so easy to be confused about its nature as you suggest. I could be wrong, but I'd like clear evidence that there were some folks unaware that the bulk of the protest was made up of unrepentant racists.
 
Now, whether Saturday was obviously the same is harder to say. All of the images I've seen made it look like a racist event, not a defense of some statue, and of course the advertising was the same. Were there some non-negligible number of non-racist participants interested in preserving statues? If so, they didn't show up in any media I've seen (not even defending themselves by uploading videos to youtube, far as I know).

Delphic Oracle is claiming that in his/her experience more than 80% of those attending had no idea what the event was about and was instead attending because they got a Facebook message about something else and were there to their Theory of Everything :rolleyes:
 
I believe Delphic Oracle is right. The problem here lies with the reader, not with anything she's said.

Two distinct events:

(1) A person uses an aerosol can to spray flames toward an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

(2) A person fires a gun at the feet of an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

Both actions are threatening. Depending on circumstances, both are illegal. The second one is much worse, deserving a reasonably serious sentence, given what we know. The first could also deserve to be tried, but this probably falls under the prosecutor's discretion.

This is not nuance. This is not hard to understand. If you can't help thinking that anyone who says it's not good to spray fire towards others in a threatening manner is a nazi-sympathizer, then the problem is on your end.

Seeing what Mr. Wizard was charged with, discharging a gun within 1000 feet of a school, I suddenly realized why those sorts of laws were a good idea. I had thought they were just "feel good" "think of the children" sorts of laws, but they were tailor made for situations similar to this one.

High schools are full of young, stupid, people, some of whom are hotheads, drug users, and gang members. Fights are part of the landscape. However, sometimes things get way out of hand, and guns show up. That's very, very, dangerous. These laws give a way to prosecute some clown who shows up with a gun and endangers everyone in the neighborhood, but giving prosecutors a lower burden of proof. Now, when some sort of scuffle breaks out, they have a tool to arrest the yahoo that escalates things beyond a display of testosterone into a deadly situation.

In this particular case, if you charge the klansman with assault, you can mount a defense by saying that you didn't initiate the assault, that you were in fact defending against another assault by a different perpetrator. He has a weapon. You have a weapon. He didn't hurt anyone. You didn't hurt anyone. There's a certain symmetry, and if you can get one juror to say that your assault was justified by his assault, you win.
(Sorry about the confusing pronoun switches there, but you get the idea.)
Now, though, there's a law that makes use of a gun in such situations explicitly illegal. It's a lot harder to convince a jury that you didn't fire a gun.

If there was a genuine risk to your own life or the lives of others, you could still mount that as a defense, but it's a lot tougher sell. Without that law, Mr. Wizard could, with some credibility, say that he had no intention to harm flamesprayer guy, but was only doing something to intervene to protect innocent people. Because firing a shot is, in and of itself, a crime, he has a much more difficult case to make. I see now that although they did not envision neo-nazis and outraged counter-demonstrators, they did envision two people or groups of people deliberately provoking a fight, and they have a tool to cut through any "he started it" or "I was just warning him" arguments. You fired a gun. That's illegal. Go to jail.
 
I believe Delphic Oracle is right. The problem here lies with the reader, not with anything she's said.

Two distinct events:

(1) A person uses an aerosol can to spray flames toward an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

(2) A person fires a gun at the feet of an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

Both actions are threatening. Depending on circumstances, both are illegal. The second one is much worse, deserving a reasonably serious sentence, given what we know. The first could also deserve to be tried, but this probably falls under the prosecutor's discretion.

This is not nuance. This is not hard to understand. If you can't help thinking that anyone who says it's not good to spray fire towards others in a threatening manner is a nazi-sympathizer, then the problem is on your end.

You also fail to see the false equivalency created by using the one to excuse the other, which is what happened in this thread.
 
This was being chanted universally across dozens of city blocks and scattered pockets of violent exchanges? Did everyone have their team colors on?

My experience covers progressive civil unrest in the past 10-15 years. Yeah, my overall take is its a damn 3-ring circus.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

Most of the had their team colors on. It was white polo night. The rest had various forms of Nazi attire.

Do you deny that this was an obvious white supremacist event? As in, obvious enough to be undeniable?
 
Also, full disclosure: I'm taking the tone I am because I have no interest in giving the right constructive criticism. The left had an opportunity to position itself against the most hated man (and ideology) on the planet and were just going to completely **** the dog, it seems.

Sent from my SM-J327P using Tapatalk

No, they are not, and I don't think "the left" needs advice from you.
 
Delphic Oracle is claiming that in his/her experience more than 80% of those attending had no idea what the event was about and was instead attending because they got a Facebook message about something else and were there to their Theory of Everything :rolleyes:

I'm willing to accept that holding a camera makes my experience a bit different (cameras attract the weirdos).

But really, I'm not shocked that all you can refute is the % that, yes, was dramatized for effect. But you can't refute that someone could show up, see things they didn't like, get caught up in the confusion, perhaps stand dumbfounded at a confrontation nearby, not notice some nazis start to congregate around them and suddenly being assumed to be "with" said nazis.

Given the feeding frenzies and lack of any kind of due process, it's even happened in my personal viewing more than a few times that someone who specifically is against an ideology and showed up for the purpose of opposing it get accused of being a supporter. One time a major organizer at an action in Chicago got released after a sweep of arrests of people in the street (she was filming at the time and they released her to avoid press freedom issues). She was accused of being a collaborator and physically ejected from the march.

Yay solidarity.
 
Most of the had their team colors on. It was white polo night. The rest had various forms of Nazi attire.

Do you deny that this was an obvious white supremacist event? As in, obvious enough to be undeniable?

I already said there's no defense in regards to the tiki-torch parade.

Are you done with your witch hunt now, Will Roper?
 
I'm willing to accept that holding a camera makes my experience a bit different (cameras attract the weirdos).

But really, I'm not shocked that all you can refute is the % that, yes, was dramatized for effect. But you can't refute that someone could show up, see things they didn't like, get caught up in the confusion, perhaps stand dumbfounded at a confrontation nearby, not notice some nazis start to congregate around them and suddenly being assumed to be "with" said nazis.

You're claiming that this accounts for more than 80% of the attendees.

Yes it is theoretically possible that someone who completely missed all of the pre-event publicity (with its Nazi symbolism), the news stories from Friday and who didn't listen to the hubbub on the street could turn up on Saturday, stand confusedly for a while until surrounded by a group of Nazis and be incorrectly assumed to be with the Nazis.

It's also possible that someone in a jewellers in the middle of the night whilst there is a robbery in progress could have accidentally walked in off the street, but the more likely explanation is that they're part of the group robbing it.
 
I believe Delphic Oracle is right. The problem here lies with the reader, not with anything she's said.

Two distinct events:

(1) A person uses an aerosol can to spray flames toward an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

(2) A person fires a gun at the feet of an opposing crowd at a counterprotest.

Both actions are threatening.

The difference is that one is defensive and the other offensive. One is showing "don't attack us, we've got a flamethrower to defend ourselves with" the other is a response showing "we can still attack if we want".

If only that black guy beaten with poles in the parking lot had an improvised flamethrower to make a point to his attackers.
 
I'm willing to accept that holding a camera makes my experience a bit different (cameras attract the weirdos).

But really, I'm not shocked that all you can refute is the % that, yes, was dramatized for effect. But you can't refute that someone could show up, see things they didn't like, get caught up in the confusion, perhaps stand dumbfounded at a confrontation nearby, not notice some nazis start to congregate around them and suddenly being assumed to be "with" said nazis.

Given the feeding frenzies and lack of any kind of due process, it's even happened in my personal viewing more than a few times that someone who specifically is against an ideology and showed up for the purpose of opposing it get accused of being a supporter. One time a major organizer at an action in Chicago got released after a sweep of arrests of people in the street (she was filming at the time and they released her to avoid press freedom issues). She was accused of being a collaborator and physically ejected from the march.

Yay solidarity.

Remember the guy whose photograph was shown upthread, wearing a confederate uniform and carrying the battle flag, being flipped off by a woman?

I saw an article about that guy. He was thrown out of his (private, Christian) university for his participation. He said he was there because he was a great admirer of Robert E. Lee, and he thought the Nazis and white supremacists were distorting Lee's history. In his mind he was just there to support the memory of Lee.

I say this, not to defend him, but just to illustrate that the crowd wasn't uniform in opinion. However, my opinion is that it should have been clear to anyone present what he was in the middle of, and by not disavowing it, he was still on the wrong side. And of course, there's the possibility that he is just lying and is as racist as the Nazis, just in a somewhat different form. At any rate, if you give him, and others like him, every possible benefit of the doubt, you might promote him all the way up to "useful idiot", but I can't see getting all the way up to "good person".
 
Remember the guy whose photograph was shown upthread, wearing a confederate uniform and carrying the battle flag, being flipped off by a woman?

I saw an article about that guy. He was thrown out of his (private, Christian) university for his participation. He said he was there because he was a great admirer of Robert E. Lee, and he thought the Nazis and white supremacists were distorting Lee's history. In his mind he was just there to support the memory of Lee.

I say this, not to defend him, but just to illustrate that the crowd wasn't uniform in opinion. However, my opinion is that it should have been clear to anyone present what he was in the middle of, and by not disavowing it, he was still on the wrong side. And of course, there's the possibility that he is just lying and is as racist as the Nazis, just in a somewhat different form. At any rate, if you give him, and others like him, every possible benefit of the doubt, you might promote him all the way up to "useful idiot", but I can't see getting all the way up to "good person".

It also presumes that he is telling the truth about his motives....

....as Dr House famously said "people lie"
 
What charge?

Didn't I already answer this?

Oh yes... I did!
Let's go ahead and add reckless endangerment and criminal threatening to that list.

Like I said earlier. Grab yourself an aerosol ca of something flammable, and a lighter. Then go stand about 10 feet away from a large crowd. Set that sucker on fire and aim it generally in the direction of those other people.

How long do you think it will be before the cops show up, and do you think they'll let you off without a charge because it's totally not a crime to aim a spear of fire toward other people? :rolleyes:
 
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