Proof of Immortality, VI

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Jabba said:
- But, the "I" that reincarnationists talk about would not be brought back to life. In that sense, the two selves would be different.
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Who cares about reincarnationalists? We're talking about H.

Yes, the two would be distinct. Identical, but separate. Two bodies and two emergent properties known as "selves".

Does that end the discussion now?
 
Jabba said:
- So, you don't know what reincarnationists think comes back to life.
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Reincarnationists don't know what they think comes back to life. That's why they (and you) can't articulate it in way that makes sense. They never could, even before we began to understand the nature of consciousness, and they certainly can't in the context of that understanding.
 
Jabba said:
- So, you don't know what reincarnationists think comes back to life.
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As I've said before, there are many different reincarnation beliefs. Most seem to involve some kind of soul. I don't believe in souls. H doesn't include souls.

Previously you've talked about the "observer" and the "sense of self". There's no reason two identical "observers" or "senses of self" couldn't exist. I can't think of any reason two souls couldn't be identical either. There would still be two of them. Two things can be identical.
 
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godless dave said:
As I've said before, there are many different reincarnation beliefs. Most seem to involve some kind of soul. I don't believe in souls. H doesn't include souls.

Previously you've talked about the "observer" and the "sense of self". There's no reason two identical "observers" or "senses of self" couldn't exist. I can't think of any reason two souls couldn't be identical either. There would still be two of them. Two things can be identical.
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- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self.
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I'm not so sure but I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

Jabba said:
Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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I experience a sense of self. I don't experience anything that couldn't possibly be duplicated, or that could see out of two sets of eyes (other than very rare exceptional circumstances).
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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Is this the sense of self that rationalists know is a process of a functioning organism?
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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You mean that sense of being an observer, watching and remembering all this. The one thing that FEELS like it is constant and the same?

Yes. I feel that.
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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Stop asking the same question over and over in different forms and get to a point, please.
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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Are you a reincarnationist? If so, what kind of self do you mean?

If not, why are you going on about it?
 
The Sparrow said:
You mean that sense of being an observer, watching and remembering all this. The one thing that FEELS like it is constant and the same?

Yes. I feel that.
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Sparrow said this better than I did.

I feel that, and I can't think of any reason why a copy of me wouldn't have exactly the same experience.
 
Jabba said:
- But then, OOFLam refers to, and I've been referring to, the kind of self to which reincarnationists refer;
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Wait, what? OOFLam is part of your ~H?
I had thought that when you referred to OOFLam that you were referring to materialism. When did you start including ~H in OOFLam?

Further, if OOFLam includes something that is a part of reincarnation, why on earth is it called Only One Finite Life? Isn't that a whacking great contradiction?

Jabba said:
you know what that kind of self is; and you believe that that kind of self would be different between identical brains.
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Please don't foist your unproven and unevidenced ideas about reincarnation onto the rest of us. I have a vague idea what some reincarnationists believe, but I don't believe that kind of self, or any kind of self, would be different if it were expressed by identical brains.

Identical brains must by definition have identical processes, which will give rise to an identical changing sense of self (with the usual caveat that the sense of self is only identical until they start to diverge due to different space-time coordinates).
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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What sense of self is that? If you mean to say soul, just say so. Why are you so afraid to use the term they actually use?
 
Jabba said:
- Surely. most (at least 99%) reincarnationists are referring to the same kind of self. Do you think that you experience the sense of self that most reincarnationists think comes back to life?
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Jabba, we quite frankly don't give a damn what it is reincanationists refer to.
WE refer to the feeling of self that is a function of a sufficiently advanced brain.

Hans
 
Try a thought experiment:
You wake up one morning. You're informed that, while you were sleeping, you had a surgery. Your brain was removed and replaced with an exact replica. Under materialism, there is no possible test that could prove the new "you" was different from the old "you". You would be identical. There is no "self" separate from the physical structures.

Or to put it in simpler terms, if an earthquake blocked the Niagra river, and the falls stopped., then when we cleared the obstruction would it still be the same falls? The materialist answer is, yes it would. Consciousness is exactly the same; the result of a process that is determined by physical processes.
 
Jabba said:
- But, the "I" that reincarnationists talk about would not be brought back to life. In that sense, the two selves would be different.
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THEY WOULD NOT BE THE SAME "SELF", BUT THEY WOULD BE IDENTICAL. THERE WOULD BE TWO OF THEM, NOT ONE. AND THEY WOULD BE IDENTICAL, NOT DIFFERENT.
 
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