Proof of Immortality, VI

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Dave,
- Previously, you seemed to be accepting that if I could set myself apart from most of the other possible results -- in a way that is meaningful to the hypothesis being reevaluated (like being second cousin to the lottery controller) -- my current existence would be an appropriate E for P(E|H). Did I misunderstand what you were saying?

You must have. I never meant to suggest that. I don't think your "set apart" concept is meaningful at all.
Dave,
- I was going from the following:

(227)LL,
- I do currently accept that in order for my current existence to be a legitimate target -- and the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam, properly fill the role of P(E|H) in the Bayesian formula -- I need to be somehow "set apart from the crowd" (or something similar). I have offered my argument for that case previously, but can't seem to find it now...
- Anyway, here's my rough explanation.
- Just to sort of "set the stage," we all take our current existence totally for granted, when it really should be the very last thing we take for granted...
- Even if I am just a process, and not a "thing1." I am still the only "thing2" that I*know*exists. Everything else (1&2) could just be my imagination.
- If I didn't currently exist, there might as well be nothing -- and, if I never existed, there might as well*never*be anything.
- That makes me special!
- I assume that you have the same credentials, and are special also.
- That ought to get us started...
(229)In what way does that make you special?
(252)Dave,
- That is the question!
- I think that the basic answer is that I'm the only self that I know does exist, the rest of you guys are hearsay. That sets me apart, and makes me special. I think it's the same claim that Toon makes.
(256) Again, how does that make you special? What does it set you apart from? Those things are only true from your perspective, and your perspective only exists after you already exist. Before you existed there was no you to have a perspective.

-You were #'s 252 and 256. That's why I had assumed that you had accepted being "set apart" would resolve the TSS problem.
 
I'm not begging people to agree with me.

Yes, you really are. Not always begging, per se, but always employing some subtle suggestion that an agreement has already been reached. You constantly and deliberately misrepresent the degree of agreement or would-be agreement to your claims.

I'm trying to understand exactly where they disagree with me.

No, that you are quite obviously not doing. In order to avoid doing that, you've gone to lengths that now are almost comical memes in this thread. It is practically a given that you will ignore almost everything that's said to you by way of disagreement of explanations for that disagreement. You show absolutely no interest whatsoever in listening to or understanding what may be wrong with your proof. And we are not the only audience who has watched you do this. This is who you are, not some artifact of the environment or of your critics' behavior. You simply want to preach your gospel from a pulpit, garner your applause, and take your bow. If you want to be seen as any different from that, you must change your behavior.
 
That's why I had assumed that you had accepted being "set apart" would resolve the TSS problem.

Why would you think that? He's clearly asking you how you know you fit your own argument. Godless dave knows how to take a premise arguendo. You do not, nor apparently how to recognize it.

In any case he has corrected your misunderstanding. There is no further point to be gained by you trying to establish that you were "somehow" right. You were not. Now quit stalling and get on with answering the challenges to your proof. There are a lot of them.
 
- Anyway, here's my rough explanation.
- Just to sort of "set the stage," we all take our current existence totally for granted, when it really should be the very last thing we take for granted...
- Even if I am just a process, and not a "thing1." I am still the only "thing2" that I*know*exists. Everything else (1&2) could just be my imagination.
- If I didn't currently exist, there might as well be nothing -- and, if I never existed, there might as well*never*be anything.
- That makes me special!

No, it doesn't; if you want to work within your formalism of "potential selves", then the above must be true of any "potential self" that actually comes into existence. This is not therefore a list of the things that make you special; they are a list of the things that define any "potential self", and are therefore a list of the things that make you commonplace.

Dave
 
Dave,
- I was going from the following:

(227)LL,
- I do currently accept that in order for my current existence to be a legitimate target -- and the likelihood of my current existence, given OOFLam, properly fill the role of P(E|H) in the Bayesian formula -- I need to be somehow "set apart from the crowd" (or something similar). I have offered my argument for that case previously, but can't seem to find it now...
- Anyway, here's my rough explanation.
- Just to sort of "set the stage," we all take our current existence totally for granted, when it really should be the very last thing we take for granted...
- Even if I am just a process, and not a "thing1." I am still the only "thing2" that I*know*exists. Everything else (1&2) could just be my imagination.
- If I didn't currently exist, there might as well be nothing -- and, if I never existed, there might as well*never*be anything.
- That makes me special!
- I assume that you have the same credentials, and are special also.
- That ought to get us started...
(229)In what way does that make you special?
(252)Dave,
- That is the question!
- I think that the basic answer is that I'm the only self that I know does exist, the rest of you guys are hearsay. That sets me apart, and makes me special. I think it's the same claim that Toon makes.
(256) Again, how does that make you special? What does it set you apart from? Those things are only true from your perspective, and your perspective only exists after you already exist. Before you existed there was no you to have a perspective.

-You were #'s 252 and 256. That's why I had assumed that you had accepted being "set apart" would resolve the TSS problem.

Then you misunderstood. I was asking you to clarify your claim that you were set apart. I wasn't saying that even if you did it would help the Texas Sharpshooter problem. I was addressing things one at a time.
 
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Has Jabba ever even acknowledged the existence of this post?

Yes, but only to suggest that he was going to add it to his blog. He acknowledged its existence only insofar as it served his own purposes. After the moderators forbade him from talking about his blog in this thread he seems to have lost all interest in it.
 
Yes, but only to suggest that he was going to add it to his blog. He acknowledged its existence only insofar as it served his own purposes. After the moderators forbade him from talking about his blog in this thread he seems to have lost all interest in it.

It's funny (in a sad sort of way) the way he pretends no one has ever made any serious refutation of any of his claims.
 
Really? The why do you ignore posts like JayUtah's multi-point refutation of your entire multi-point reset?

Here it is again: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11871278&postcount=3198
jond,
- I've provided what seems to me an obviously valid explanation numerous times in past chapters. I guess I should try again in this chapter.
- I'm old and slow. I'm not good at quick answers. I've had to admit misstatements numerous times.
- I have numerous duties at home.
- I allow myself 2 or 3 hours a day to devote to arguing with you guys (my hobby). I can't justify (to my wife) using any more time. I wish that I could. You must realize that I'm enjoying myself... Just like you guys are.
- Over the 5 years, I've engaged more than 100 opponents. Most opponents include multiple questions/objections in each post. Jay is especially likely to include several in each post, and provide multiple posts in a row.
- In addition, whenever I ask Jay to specify something from the past, he fusses at me for being lazy and refuses to help.
- I have offered (more than once) to use Jay as your side's spokesperson, but he can't deal with me dealing with only one or two sub-issues at a time, and still refuses to help.
- For some reason, no one here seems to accept the above as a reasonable excuse for my 'tardiness.'
- That should do it for this chapter.
- And this might be considered "off-topic."
 
Then you misunderstood. I was asking you to clarify your claim that you were set apart. I wasn't saying that even if you did it would help the Texas Sharpshooter problem. I was addressing things one at a time.
- OK.
- Another hypothetical: if I were able to solve the TSS problem, what more would I need to solve?
 
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jond,
- I've provided what seems to me an obviously valid explanation numerous times in past chapters. I guess I should try again in this chapter.
- I'm old and slow. I'm not good at quick answers. I've had to admit misstatements numerous times.
- I have numerous duties at home.
- I allow myself 2 or 3 hours a day to devote to arguing with you guys (my hobby). I can't justify (to my wife) using any more time. I wish that I could. You must realize that I'm enjoying myself... Just like you guys are.
- Over the 5 years, I've engaged more than 100 opponents. Most opponents include multiple questions/objections in each post. Jay is especially likely to include several in each post, and provide multiple posts in a row.
- In addition, whenever I ask Jay to specify something from the past, he fusses at me for being lazy and refuses to help.
- I have offered (more than once) to use Jay as your side's spokesperson, but he can't deal with me dealing with only one or two sub-issues at a time, and still refuses to help.
- For some reason, no one here seems to accept the above as a reasonable excuse for my 'tardiness.'
- That should do it for this chapter.
- And this might be considered "off-topic."

Jabba, you complain about being old and slow, but you make multi-point statements all the time. To then complain that you can't deal with point by point rebuttals of your multi-point statements is absurd. If you can make them, you can respond to them. If you can't, then you need to realize that you are not capable of debating at this level.

The thing is: you have lost this debate on many levels, and all of it rests entirely on your shoulders. You have to stop blaming others for your inability to argue what is a failed argument. Start asking yourself if maybe you are wrong. Because you are.
 
- OK.
- Another hypothetical: if I were able to solve the TSS problem, what more would I need to solve?

How you imagine it is more likely that your body exists and your soul exists and it somehow connects with your brain then it is that just your body exists.
 
jond,
- I've provided what seems to me an obviously valid explanation numerous times in past chapters. I guess I should try again in this chapter.
- I'm old and slow. I'm not good at quick answers. I've had to admit misstatements numerous times.
- I have numerous duties at home.
- I allow myself 2 or 3 hours a day to devote to arguing with you guys (my hobby). I can't justify (to my wife) using any more time. I wish that I could. You must realize that I'm enjoying myself... Just like you guys are.
- Over the 5 years, I've engaged more than 100 opponents. Most opponents include multiple questions/objections in each post. Jay is especially likely to include several in each post, and provide multiple posts in a row.
- In addition, whenever I ask Jay to specify something from the past, he fusses at me for being lazy and refuses to help.
- I have offered (more than once) to use Jay as your side's spokesperson, but he can't deal with me dealing with only one or two sub-issues at a time, and still refuses to help.
- For some reason, no one here seems to accept the above as a reasonable excuse for my 'tardiness.'
- That should do it for this chapter.
- And this might be considered "off-topic."


Jabba, in the time it took you to compose and post this list of pathetic excuses, you could have addressed at least one of Jay's points. If you devote 2 or 3 hours a day to this thread, why do you never use that time to address them? Sad.
 
- OK.
- Another hypothetical: if I were able to solve the TSS problem, what more would I need to solve?

You would have to have a good definition of H, but you would need that to solve the Texas Sharpshooter problem anyway.

You would need a credible value for P(E|~H). Depending how H is defined that could be difficult, since ~H would have to be everything that isn't H. Contrasting a hypothesis with its complement only works when there are exactly two hypotheses without the possibility of any others.
 
- I'm old and slow. I'm not good at quick answers.

And yet you're quick with repeating your claims and finding excuses. Perhaps if you spend your time and energy actually participating in a discussion about the merits of your claims and demonstration, this would've been over with years ago.
 
Jay is especially likely to include several in each post, and provide multiple posts in a row.
- In addition, whenever I ask Jay to specify something from the past, he fusses at me for being lazy and refuses to help.

I'm not even Jay and I find this statement insulting.

- I have offered (more than once) to use Jay as your side's spokesperson, but he can't deal with me dealing with only one or two sub-issues at a time, and still refuses to help.

2-3 hours offers plenty of time to address all of Jay's points, accept your errors, correct them, admit defeat, and be done with it.
 
I've provided what seems to me an obviously valid explanation numerous times in past chapters. I guess I should try again in this chapter.

No, you have not addressed that post. That post was not an invitation for you simply to repeat your claims over and over. That post shows you what's wrong with your claims. I want you to write a few sentences telling me how you plan to address each of the things that's wrong with your argument.

I allow myself 2 or 3 hours a day to devote to arguing with you guys...

Which, I guarantee, is far more than most or all your critics have to spend on it. I'm lucky to get half an hour a day for all the ISF threads I write in. Today I'm off work, so I can spend a bit more time.

Send Befuddled Old Man back to the green room. He no longer amuses me.

I can't justify (to my wife) using any more time.

Don't blame this on your wife. You have plenty of time to hunt back and compose large anthology posts. You have plenty of time to repeat yourself ad nauseam and perform countless fringe resets. The problem is clearly not how much time you have, but how you choose to spend that time. You claim you're interested in what's wrong with your argument. But your elective behavior simply says otherwise.

Jay is especially likely to include several in each post, and provide multiple posts in a row.

Right, blame Jay now. It's always everyone's fault but yours. I have to repeat myself a lot because you keep making the same mistakes. If you would address my comments when they were first made, I wouldn't have to keep repeating them.

In addition, whenever I ask Jay to specify something from the past, he fusses at me for being lazy and refuses to help.

And I will continue to refuse to help you in that way. Your critics are not obliged to indulge your pick-and-choose style of responses, or your propensity to ignore posts until they fall off the end of recent memory. We are your critics. We are not obliged to help you compensate for the consequences of your own choices.

Nevertheless you have several times recently been given the link back to the post I most wish you to address in its entirety. Blaming Jay doesn't make that fact go away.

I have offered (more than once) to use Jay as your side's spokesperson...

Correction: you have attempted to foist ground rules onto your opponents wherein they may have only one spokesman. You are here debating on this site according to this site's rules and conventions. If you cannot make headway under those circumstances, concede the debate and go spend time with your wife. No one is obliged to agree to your special terms, especially after you proved yourself unable to follow them.

The fact remains that I don't need to be some designated spokesman for you to read and respond to what I write. You simply choose not to, and now you're making up all sorts of prima donna excuses in an attempt to justify that.

...but he can't deal with me dealing with only one or two sub-issues at a time, and still refuses to help.

I am your critic. I am not obliged to help you. I am obliged, in fact, to point out any error you might make, whether it's an error in your argument or an error in the way you present it. You deliberately ignore most of what's said to you. It's your choice to so do. Your critics are not responsible for correcting the consequences of your choices, should you suddenly decide that what someone once said is now relevant and you now wish to address it.

And no one is obliged to follow your agenda for debate, especially when we have years of data to show that your agenda-setting is merely a stunt to bog down the debate. You change subjects at will -- blaming your critics for it when you do. Since you can't follow your own agenda, your critics have no obligation to either.

So yes, my request that you address (at least briefly) each and every one of the fatal flaws I identified is specifically aimed to undermine the tactic you've used for five years to keep the discussion from reaching its logical conclusion. Enough is enough.

For some reason, no one here seems to accept the above as a reasonable excuse for my 'tardiness.'

That's right, no one is obliged to accept your excuses as reasonable or operative. You've had two months to engage the post to which everyone is referring you. Your unwillingness even to acknowledge its existence beyond fodder for your blog is not excused by any of the prima donna nonsense you've spouted today.

Now quit stalling and quite whining. I've had quite enough of your immature complaints for one day.
 
Another hypothetical: if I were able to solve the TSS problem, what more would I need to solve?

You honestly need to ask this after trying to lay all the blame at my feet for your inability to address a comprehensive rebuttal that has been linked several times in the past few days? Honestly, Jabba? Really?
 
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