Trump - No transgender individuals in the military

[Giordano]

You need a couple gay friends. You could get over your reaction if you got to know some people.

Exactly! In fact you probably already know such people; you just don't know that you know them. The discomfort comes from stereotypes that can only be maintained in your brain if you don't interact with actual gay and transgendered people. You will soon see them as people just like everyone else, and you will recognize that their gender and sexuality are trivial aspects of who they are.

This is what happened to me.

 

[Belz...]

Exactly! In fact you probably already know such people; you just don't know that you know them. The discomfort comes from stereotypes that can only be maintained in your brain if you don't interact with actual gay and transgendered people. You will soon see them as people just like everyone else, and their gender a sexuality becomes a trivial aspect of who they are as you see them.

That's just ridiculous. He might know some, depending on how many people he knows. Also, the discomfort may not come from stereotypes at all. How would you know? People dislike or are uncomfortable with tons of stuff for tons of reasons.

 

[acbytesla]

There is no reason to be ashamed of how you feel. Your actions are the only thing anyone is ever entitled to judge you on.

You need a couple gay friends. You could get over your reaction if you got to know some people.

I have gay friends and relatives. Still uncomfortable. But as I said, the problem is me not them. My issue shouldn't be theirs.

I think there are a lot of people who are uncomfortable.

Ziggurat is right in that I probably shouldn't feel ashamed, but maybe that has to do with that I tend to think of myself as enlightened somewhat sophisticated human being. But truth is I'm probably more a redneck jock in city clothes than anything else. Doesn't matter how many books I read or art galleries or cocktail parties I attend I'll always be the kid from the sticks and there are some things you don't do.

 

[dudalb]

I repeat: If the issue was just the Military paying for the operations all Trump needed to do was say "Transgenders can join, but the military will not pay for their change surgery".
Instead he goes for a total ban.
It's just pandering to his religious right following,on which he is becoming more dependent by the day.

 

[Ziggurat]

You will soon see them as people just like everyone else

Then you can begin to despise them on a completely individual level, for stuff like the disgusting way they chew their food, or the fact that they like Nickelback.

 

[Lithrael]

I have gay friends and relatives. Still uncomfortable. But as I said, the problem is me not them. My issue shouldn't be theirs.

I think there are a lot of people who are uncomfortable.

Ziggurat is right in that I probably shouldn't feel ashamed, but maybe that has to do with that I tend to think of myself as enlightened somewhat sophisticated human being. But truth is I'm probably more a redneck jock in city clothes than anything else. Doesn't matter how many books I read or art galleries or cocktail parties I attend I'll always be the kid from the sticks and there are some things you don't do.

Consider how many people there are stuck feeling exactly that way who *are* LGBT and you'll digest the fact that familiarity is no easy cure for the visceral grip of ideas a person has grown up with.

 

[sir drinks-a-lot]

I repeat: If the issue was just the Military paying for the operations all Trump needed to do was say "Transgenders can join, but the military will not pay for their change surgery".
Instead he goes for a total ban.
It's just pandering to his religious right following,on which he is becoming more dependent by the day.

I don't think he's pandering to his religious right following, or even that he has a religious right following. I think it was just a political move.

It's not my own idea, I heard it on an AM raid show that I listen to. (I know)
I'm not into the whole "Trump is playing 3d chess" theory that has been going around, but I really think the reason he did it was to get the left all riled up and having to talk about transgender issues that hardly no-one really cares about instead of talking about the economy and health car and other things that people do care about.

 

[acbytesla]

Consider how many people there are stuck feeling exactly that way who *are* LGBT and you'll digest the fact that familiarity is no easy cure for the visceral grip of ideas a person has grown up with.

I understand. That's why I say it is my problem not theirs. I'm an atheist and have felt doomed to hell for decades which is irrational as anything I can imagine considering I don't believe in hell.

How do you reconcile a lifetime of being told what is right and what is wrong only to come to the conclusion that all those people and ideas don't have a leg to stand on?

Being an atheist in an evangelical family is hard enough. I can't imagine dealing with the difficulties of the LGBT community.

 

[bobdroege7]

I was in the Navy, and the only physical tests we had to pass were to jump into the deep end of a pool and swim to the shallow end, and to run 2 1/4 miles in 18 minutes in boondockers.

 

[HarryHenderson]

"I don't have a thing to wear for a carpet bombing."

 

[Elagabalus]

I don't think he's pandering to his religious right following, or even that he has a religious right following. I think it was just a political move.

It's not my own idea, I heard it on an AM raid show that I listen to. (I know)
I'm not into the whole "Trump is playing 3d chess" theory that has been going around, but I really think the reason he did it was to get the left all riled up and having to talk about transgender issues that hardly no-one really cares about instead of talking about the economy and health car and other things that people do care about.

I agree that he does it on purpose. But I also agree with CNN's assessment:

...But, ascribing strategy to every ball Trump throws may be giving him and his White House too much credit. The truth is that this is a President who creates chaos in and around him. He acts, and then watches the wildness that ensues. The plan, seemingly, is that there is no plan...

http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/28/politics/donald-trump-week/index.html

Just because I like the scene:




Also: I've been re-watching this series and I remember this interview in particular:



Goto 8:56

I have to admit, Hitler comes off better than Trump.

 

[sylvan8798]

I understand. That's why I say it is my problem not theirs. I'm an atheist and have felt doomed to hell for decades which is irrational as anything I can imagine considering I don't believe in hell.

How do you reconcile a lifetime of being told what is right and what is wrong only to come to the conclusion that all those people and ideas don't have a leg to stand on?

Being an atheist in an evangelical family is hard enough. I can't imagine dealing with the difficulties of the LGBT community.

My son is out as a gay, but I'm in the closet as an atheist. There's nothing to be gained by disrupting everyone else's delusions.

 

[acbytesla]

My son is out as a gay, but I'm in the closet as an atheist. There's nothing to be gained by disrupting everyone else's delusions.

That's how I use to feel. But someone has to say the emperor is without clothes. I'm of the thinking that far more people don't actually believe and are faking it like you are and I was. Often for other people that are faking it as well.

I think we have a responsibility to make it acceptable to be an atheist just as it is acceptable to be gay. If people don't own up to it, the charade and con which is religion will continue far too long.

But you never know until you jump in the water. Atheism can be a bigger issue in some families than homosexuality. But there are a lot more people than you think that also see the King as stark naked. I think the more people who own up to it, the more acceptable it will be.

But you know your family situation and you have to live withe consequences so the choice must be yours.

 

[Giordano]

Then you can begin to despise them on a completely individual level, for stuff like the disgusting way they chew their food, or the fact that they like Nickelback.

Absolutely. Reflecting the individuals I first met, worked with, etc. I initially assumed that all gay people were sophisticated, clever, had professional careers, kind, etc. Then I met a few gay people who were absolute jerks. So I lost my last prejudice and now fully accept that gay people are like everyone else- some are great and some are idiots. It was stupid for me to ever have thought otherwise!

 

[quadraginta]

No, it's not irrelevant. For most positions in the military, the standards for men and women are different (though I don't think they should be). So it definitely still matters for trans. Just not more than it does for women.

It doesn't matter because they still need to qualify for that position by the standards of the gender they are presenting.

If they are transmale then they will be held to the standards required of any other male. If the military deems them qualified by those standards why would you object?

 

[quadraginta]

"I don't have a thing to wear for a carpet bombing."

That's one of the great things about the military. You never have to worry about what to wear.

You wear what they tell you to.

 

[Pterodactyl]

It doesn't matter because they still need to qualify for that position by the standards of the gender they are presenting.

If they are transmale then they will be held to the standards required of any other male. If the military deems them qualified by those standards why would you object?

I can see it now:

"Sorry PFC Jones, you couldn't complete enough pull-ups, and your running time was two minutes too slow to qualify for this MOS."

"Hold on, Sarge. I now identify as a woman"

"Well why didnt you say so? Welcome aboard!"


Maybe good impetus to push for consistent standards across the board.

 

[quadraginta]

That's how I use to feel. But someone has to say the emperor is without clothes. I'm of the thinking that far more people don't actually believe and are faking it like you are and I was. Often for other people that are faking it as well.

<snip>

I suspect you realize that many of those people who are faking it as well are among the most vocal in their condemnation of those who do not.

 

[quadraginta]

I can see it now:

"Sorry PFC Jones, you couldn't complete enough pull-ups, and your running time was two minutes too slow to qualify for this MOS."

"Hold on, Sarge. I now identify as a woman"

"Well why didnt you say so? Welcome aboard!"

Which would be fine, I suppose, if they only wanted the sort of jobs which were satisfied with that level of qualification.

This is not unlike the dire warnings of people who foretold the inevitability of hordes of creepy men suddenly claiming to be trans just so they could get into the women's bathrooms. Mostly bull ****, IOW.

There's a little (which is to say, a lot) more involved than just suddenly announcing you are trans.

Maybe good impetus to push for consistent standards across the board.

If that is the best solution for the military to fill its staffing needs. A radar operator doesn't need the same qualifications as a SEAL. An intelligence analyst doesn't need the same qualifications as a combat soldier.

Or vice versa.

It would seriously limit the recruitment options of the military if they required everyone to be equal to the most demanding requirements of the most demanding jobs.

Once you concede that point then there is no reason to object to a set of minimum standards that everyone has to satisfy, and add to them as the demands of different jobs require.

Which I think is pretty much what they are doing, or at least working toward.

 

[Ziggurat]

If the military deems them qualified by those standards why would you object?

I object to the different standards themselves. And again, as I stated previously, that problem isn't peculiar to trans service members.