General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

smartcooky · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
We have seen a picture of a girl that looks exactly like Anne Frank in group of Dutch Jewish children at Belsen who survived the war.

Just because a photo looks like someone doesn't mean it is that same someone. There are people out there who bear striking resemblances to each other but aren't the same person.

This Russian infantryman bears a remarkable resemblance to Russian Premier Vladimir Putin...

... except it isn't him. Putin was born in 1952, the photo was taken circa 1920.

How about this one...

... it looks a lot like Putin too, but it isn't him either. This photo of a Soviet Tank Commander was taken in 1941.

These two photos both look a LOT more like Putin than the photo of the girl with the Dutch Jewish children looks like Anne Frank.

Saggy · Jul 25, 2017

LemmyCaution said:
You seem reluctant to discuss the matter at hand.

On the contrary, Wiesel's book is one of my favorite subjects. For several reasons, the first of which is ... anyone who reads the book critically will know without doubt that the holocaust is a complete hoax.

We start with, on page 6? ...

"Babies were thrown in the air and the machine gunners used them as targets."

This type of preposterous and degenerate lie is the heart of the hoax.

Then, there is the fact that Wiesel was a prisoner at Auschwitz when the Nazis were supposedly killing 10,000 Jews per day (24,000 in one day according to P. Levi) in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms, and Wiesel never mentions gas chambers in the book.

Instead, he says, with another preposterous and degenerate lie, that the Nazis killed the Jews by tossing them alive into burning pits, one for children, one for adults.

And, finally, when telling the truth, Wiesel describes taking a shower on six separate occasions in the book expressly for the purpose of disinfection.

"A barrel of witch burned at stake foul-smelling liquid stood by the door. Disinfection. Everybody soaked in it. Then came the hot shower. All very fast. As we left the showers, we were chased outside." (pg. 36) "We were led toward one of those 'blocks.' Seated by the entrance we began to wait again. Form time to time somebody was allowed to go in. There were the showers, a compulsory routine." (pg. 41) "Of course we had to pass through the showers." (pg. 47) "We would shower and afterward be sent to different blocks." (pg. 104) "I'll wait here until we can go into the showers .." (pg. 105) "At Buchenwald, everybody had to go to the showers." (pg. 107). Use Amazon's 'Search inside the book' feature to confirm.

The Nazis are killing 10000 Jews per day at Auschwitz in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms, and Wiesel didn't notice. He reports taking showers for the purpose of disinfection. He, along with Otto Frank and Primo Levi where in camp hospitals when the Soviets approached. Etc.

'Night', read critically, proves that the holocaust is a preposterous and degenerate hoax, as well as anything.

How completely absurd can the hoax be ???

Saggy · Jul 25, 2017

smartcooky said:
This Russian infantryman bears a remarkable resemblance to Russian Premier Vladimir Putin...

If you search the world for a person that looks like Putin, you're likely to find a good match.

However, if you search his high school graduating class of 10 or so people there is a very slim, almost zero chance, of finding anyone who looks like him.

The photo of Anne Frank is a group of 10 or so Dutch children who were at Belsen when Anne Frank was there. The chances of finding someone looking just like her are next to zero.

Plus, it should be easy to find out who the girl in the picture is, however the Anne Frank House knows nothing and the diamond children say nothing.

smartcooky · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
If you search the world for a person that looks like Putin, you're likely to find a good match.

If you search the world looking for a person who looks like Anne Frank, you're likely to find a good match...

and in fact, I have... it took me less than ten seconds to fine one

LemmyCaution · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
On the contrary, Wiesel's book is one of my favorite subjects.

But the matter at hand was the fate of the Dutch Jews. You're going off on your tangent again.

And far be it from me to tout Wiesel's book - I will call you out when you misrepresent it, as you did on his decision to leave the camp - but I don't make use of his material in forming or supporting my views on the Holocaust. The Holocaust can be explained - and is, by historians, without reference to Wiesel's novels or other writing.

The rest of your post is off topic, seemingly trying to get you off the hook for the answers you owe Nessie and others about Dutch Jews.

LemmyCaution · Jul 25, 2017

Axxman300 · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
The Nazis are killing 10000 Jews per day at Auschwitz in gas chambers disguised as shower rooms, and Wiesel didn't notice.

Weird, almost like the S.S. was running some kind of concentration camp where they worked some prisoners as slave labor. 16-hour days, little to no food does wonders on your ability to focus.

Oh, and why did the S.S. build 4 crematoriums at CampII which ran 24/7?

Nessie · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
Surely the most famous Dutch alleged victim is Anne Frank, but I'm still waiting to see a shred of evidence that she died at Belsen. We have seen the evidence that she survived the war.

Also, her father, Otto Frank, was in a hospital in Auschwitz when the Soviets approached the camp, as were Elie Wiesel and Primo Levi. All were given the choice of awaiting the Soviets or decamping with the Nazis. Wiesel chose to leave with the Nazis as he recounts in 'Night'. Frank and Levi stayed and were liberated by the Soviets. The Nazis certainly had an odd way of exterminating the Jews.

Stop dodging my point that if denialism was true, c101,000 Dutch Jews (33,000 of whom went to Sobibor) lived on after they were liberated from Nazi captivity and kept quiet they were still alive.

smartcooky · Jul 25, 2017

Not being someone who is prepared to take any CT at their word, I thought I'd do a little testing to see if the claim that Anne Frank is in the photo of the group of Dutch children stood up to scrutiny. For this I needed some facial comparison software. After some "shopping around" I settled on a nifty little website called https://www.twinsornot.net/.

However, as I don't generally trust this kind of online software, I decided to do a little testing using some known images. I used a photo of my father taken in 1939 (when he was 27 and just about to join the RAF at the outbreak of WW2) and compared it with photos of him taken at known ages. In each case the 1939 photo is on the left and the comparison result is underneath.

1927

1943

1952

1965

The software has correctly matched him as the same person on this and every other occasion. I decided I needed a control negative, so I compared him with his best friend, Roger Green, who people all said resembled Dad a lot.

Nope, only 71%...not even close

Next I went on to Ann Frank. I compared the photo posted earlier by Saggy with other known photographs of Anne Frank, choosing some that looked obviously the same, and some that looked different.

In each case, when I compare that photo with a known photo of Anne Frank, the result was a 100% match.

Now for a couple of negative controls. First, I used the same photo of Ann Frank and compared it with one of my sister taken when she was 16, then used the photo I posted in post #2644 which was the first result when I Google searched "Anne Frank Lookalikes"

So far so good, and now comes the acid test.

Does the claim that Anne Frank is the girl in the photo of the Dutch Jewish children really stand up to testing?

No, it does not. In fact, it is barely a better match than my sister, who looks nothing like her, and my Google search for a lookalike actually resulted in a closer match.

IMO, the claim is DEBUNKED!

Border Reiver · Jul 25, 2017

smartcooky said:
Not being someone who is prepared to take any CT at their word, I thought I'd do a little testing to see if the claim that Anne Frank is in the photo of the group of Dutch children stood up to scrutiny. For this I needed some facial comparison software. After some "shopping around" I settled on a nifty little website called https://www.twinsornot.net/.

However, as I don't generally trust this kind of online software, I decided to do a little testing using some known images. I used a photo of my father taken in 1939 (when he was 27 and just about to join the RAF at the outbreak of WW2) and compared it with photos of him taken at known ages. In each case the 1939 photo is on the left and the comparison result is underneath.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhv3343psgvj1ar/JAC1927.jpg?dl=1[/qimg] 1927 [qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/6l1x6qoekfpywum/JAC1943.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]1943

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ql3d5rflg8gw4av/JAC1952.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]1952 [qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/pegi57yd7r6kq57/JAC1965.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]1965

The software has correctly matched him as the same person on this and every other occasion. I decided I needed a control negative, so I compared him with his best friend, Roger Green, who people all said resembled Dad a lot.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdgyncsel7izr52/JAC-Roger.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

Nope, only 71%...not even close

Next I went on to Ann Frank. I compared the photo posted earlier by Saggy with other known photographs of Anne Frank, choosing some that looked obviously the same, and some that looked different.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/jz1mg9vyii8zgel/AF1.jpg?dl=1[/qimg][qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/1rfaaqnbkwzxxrh/AF2.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrvuam28dn5yp66/AF3.jpg?dl=1[/qimg][qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/g02tsbudp8y49o8/AF4.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

In each case, when I compare that photo with a known photo of Anne Frank, the result was a 100% match.

Now for a couple of negative controls. First, I used the same photo of Ann Frank and compared it with one of my sister taken when she was 16, then used the photo I posted in post #2644 which was the first result when I Google searched "Anne Frank Lookalikes"

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3x5865bzpskacig/AF-sister.jpg?dl=1[/qimg][qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/nymynnw1jne59wn/AF-lookalike.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

So far so good, and now comes the acid test.

Does the claim that Anne Frank is the girl in the photo of the Dutch Jewish children really stand up to testing?

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtew3nmtdhg8l9d/AF-Dutch.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

No, it does not. In fact, it is barely a better match than my sister, who looks nothing like her, and my Google search for a lookalike actually resulted in a closer match.

IMO, the claim is DEBUNKED!

Well conducted experiment with a testable conclusion, published results and repeatable.

Rationally, this would put the matter to rest. I suspect that, true to form, a denialist will ignore it and either substitute their own preferred results or claim you have falsified the result because of your unrepentant shilling for Big Holocaust. It's sad really.

LemmyCaution · Jul 25, 2017

Nice, smartcooky. Now let's hope Saggy will get on with answering Nessie's original question.

smartcooky · Jul 25, 2017

Border Reiver said:
Well conducted experiment with a testable conclusion, published results and repeatable.

Rationally, this would put the matter to rest. I suspect that, true to form, a denialist will ignore it and either substitute their own preferred results or claim you have falsified the result because of your unrepentant shilling for Big Holocaust. It's sad really.

Well, I'm prepared to make available all the photos I used in testing for anyone wanting to conduct the tests themselves.

But you're right. CTs and Hoax bleevers always handwave away anything that doesn't fit their agenda and worldview. This exercise was mainly for my own satisfaction because when I looked at the photo of the girl in that group, I could see a resemblance. However, I know enough to realise that just because people look alike, doesn't mean that they are the same person (have a look at Helen Hunt and Jodie Foster some time)

Saggy · Jul 25, 2017

smartcooky said:
Not being someone who is prepared to take any CT at their word, I thought I'd do a little testing to see if the claim that Anne Frank is in the photo of the group of Dutch children stood up to scrutiny. For this I needed some facial comparison software. After some "shopping around" I settled on a nifty little website called https://www.twinsornot.net/.

However, as I don't generally trust this kind of online software, I decided to do a little testing using some known images. I used a photo of my father taken in 1939 (when he was 27 and just about to join the RAF at the outbreak of WW2) and compared it with photos of him taken at known ages. In each case the 1939 photo is on the left and the comparison result is underneath.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/hhv3343psgvj1ar/JAC1927.jpg?dl=1[/qimg] 1927 [qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/6l1x6qoekfpywum/JAC1943.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]1943

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/ql3d5rflg8gw4av/JAC1952.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]1952 [qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/pegi57yd7r6kq57/JAC1965.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]1965

The software has correctly matched him as the same person on this and every other occasion. I decided I needed a control negative, so I compared him with his best friend, Roger Green, who people all said resembled Dad a lot.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/bdgyncsel7izr52/JAC-Roger.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

Nope, only 71%...not even close

Next I went on to Ann Frank. I compared the photo posted earlier by Saggy with other known photographs of Anne Frank, choosing some that looked obviously the same, and some that looked different.

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/jz1mg9vyii8zgel/AF1.jpg?dl=1[/qimg][qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/1rfaaqnbkwzxxrh/AF2.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/zrvuam28dn5yp66/AF3.jpg?dl=1[/qimg][qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/g02tsbudp8y49o8/AF4.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

In each case, when I compare that photo with a known photo of Anne Frank, the result was a 100% match.

Now for a couple of negative controls. First, I used the same photo of Ann Frank and compared it with one of my sister taken when she was 16, then used the photo I posted in post #2644 which was the first result when I Google searched "Anne Frank Lookalikes"

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/3x5865bzpskacig/AF-sister.jpg?dl=1[/qimg][qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/nymynnw1jne59wn/AF-lookalike.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

So far so good, and now comes the acid test.

Does the claim that Anne Frank is the girl in the photo of the Dutch Jewish children really stand up to testing?

[qimg]https://www.dropbox.com/s/vtew3nmtdhg8l9d/AF-Dutch.jpg?dl=1[/qimg]

No, it does not. In fact, it is barely a better match than my sister, who looks nothing like her, and my Google search for a lookalike actually resulted in a closer match.

IMO, the claim is DEBUNKED!

Interesting, but certainly not convincing. In fact the last graphic, with the two images of Anne side by side and size adjusted, is, to my internal facial recognition software, clearly a match. And, that facial recognition program you're using is clearly wack.

Saggy · Jul 25, 2017

LemmyCaution said:
Saggy, you seem confused. You're asked to provide replies to numerous posts on the Dutch Jews - and instead post random examples from Wiesel. To help you focus, here are the posts which you've ignored on the Dutch Jews (or in one or two cases replied with dubious material about Anne Frank):

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11929285&postcount=2608

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11930763&postcount=2616

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11930790&postcount=2617

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931181&postcount=2619

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931392&postcount=2620

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931392&postcount=2620

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11931717&postcount=2622

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11932048&postcount=2625

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11932319&postcount=2627

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11932356&postcount=2628

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11932447&postcount=2630

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11932540&postcount=2633

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=11932548&postcount=2634

I already answered the question regarding the Dutch Jews, and there is no need to repeat it. Pay attention.

carlitos · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
The photo of Anne Frank is a group of 10 or so Dutch children who were at Belsen when Anne Frank was there. The chances of finding someone looking just like her are next to zero.

Strange, I would think that a group of 10 or so Dutch jewish schoolchildren would be more likely than the general population to contain someone that looks like another Dutch jewish schoolgirl.

Saggy said:
Interesting, but certainly not convincing. In fact the last graphic, with the two images of Anne side by side and size adjusted, is, to my internal facial recognition software, clearly a match. And, that facial recognition program you're using is clearly wack.

LemmyCaution · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
I already answered the question regarding the Dutch Jews, and there is no need to repeat it. Pay attention.

No, you didn't. You've been asked to explain what happened to over 100,000 Dutch Jews and how you account for there being no trace of them; to tell us how you know what you say; to deal with the specific evidence for the murder of 34,000 Dutch Jews at Sobibór; and to explain where historians cited in this thread have it wrong.

Pretending you answered is, I suppose, one way around your inability to answer. And, no, posting a sketchy photo "match" to Anne Frank is not the same as "already answer[ing]" what Nessie and I have asked you about the fate of 100,000 Dutch Jews and replying to our posts on the topic.

But, for kicks, go ahead, link us to where you answered the questions which I've kindly repeated for you in this post.

LemmyCaution · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
And, that facial recognition program you're using is clearly wack.

Ah, what doesn't support your belief is "clearly wack." Quelle surprise. We note that you don't explain why or offer any support for this assertion other than your own incredulity, er, your internal (defective) software.

Nessie · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy said:
I already answered the question regarding the Dutch Jews, and there is no need to repeat it. Pay attention.

You have not dealt with my point about the Dutch Jews. For denialism to be correct, it requires c101,000 people (c34,000 from Sobibor) to have kept quiet they lived on, when the Dutch Government was declaring them dead.

That is an incredible claim by denialism and you need to show it is possible.

LemmyCaution · Jul 25, 2017

Saggy, we've seen a number of works about the Dutch Jews during the war, supporting Nessie's point, referenced in this thread. Among them are:

Moore, Victims and survivors: the Nazi persecution of the Jews in the Netherlands, 1940-1945
Schelvis, Sobibor
ten Have, The Persecution of the Jews in the Netherlands, 1940-1945
Lozowick, Hitler's Bureaucrats: The Nazi Security Police and the Banality of Evil
Braber, This Cannot Happen Here: Integration and Jewish Resistance in the Netherlands, 1940-1945
Presser, The Destruction of the Dutch Jews (also: Presser, Ondergang. De vervolging en verdelging van het Nederlandse jodendom 1940-1945, 2 delen)
Hondius, “Bitter Homecoming: The Return and Reception of Dutch and Stateless Jews in the Netherlands,” in Bankier, ed., The Jews Are Coming Home
Aalders, Nazi looting: the plunder of Dutch Jewry during the Second World War
Grimsted, “Reconstructing the Record of Nazi Cultural Plunder: A Surevy of the Dispersed Archives of the Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR),” IISH Research Paper
de Haan, “An Unresolved Controversy: The Jewish Honor Court in the Netherlands, 1946–1950,” in Jockusch & Finder, Jewish Honor Courts: Revenge, Retribution, and Reconciliation in Europe and Israel after the Holocaust
de Jong, Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (14 vols)

I doubt any of us here is a specialist in the history of Dutch Jewry. One could add other specialist works, such as those by Ritz, various papers by Croes (e.g., "The Holocaust in the Netherlands and the Rate of Jewish Survival" in HGS); Aalder's essay in Feldman & Seibel, Networks of Nazi Persecution: Bureaucracy, Business, and the Organization of the Holocaust; Lindeman & de Vries, “‘Therefore Be Courageous, Too,’: Jewish Resistance and Rescue in the Netherlands,” in Henry, ed, Jewish Resistance Against the Nazis; and so on. A specialist would no doubt add many more, in Dutch and German.

Now, I've asked you to tell us what you think are the problems in this literature and on what grounds. You've been silent.

This leads me to ask a simpler question: which works, from the list in this post or others, on Dutch Jews in the Holocaust have you read and studied?

Saggy · Jul 25, 2017

LemmyCaution said:
Saggy, we've seen a number of works about the Dutch Jews during the war, supporting Nessie's point, referenced in this thread. Among them are:

Moore, Victims and survivors: the Nazi persecution of the Jews in the Netherlands, 1940-1945
Schelvis, Sobibor
ten Have, The Persecution of the Jews in the Netherlands, 1940-1945
Lozowick, Hitler's Bureaucrats: The Nazi Security Police and the Banality of Evil
Braber, This Cannot Happen Here: Integration and Jewish Resistance in the Netherlands, 1940-1945
Presser, The Destruction of the Dutch Jews (also: Presser, Ondergang. De vervolging en verdelging van het Nederlandse jodendom 1940-1945, 2 delen)
Hondius, “Bitter Homecoming: The Return and Reception of Dutch and Stateless Jews in the Netherlands,” in Bankier, ed., The Jews Are Coming Home
Aalders, Nazi looting: the plunder of Dutch Jewry during the Second World War
Grimsted, “Reconstructing the Record of Nazi Cultural Plunder: A Surevy of the Dispersed Archives of the Einsatzstab Reichsleiter Rosenberg (ERR),” IISH Research Paper
de Haan, “An Unresolved Controversy: The Jewish Honor Court in the Netherlands, 1946–1950,” in Jockusch & Finder, Jewish Honor Courts: Revenge, Retribution, and Reconciliation in Europe and Israel after the Holocaust
de Jong, Het Koninkrijk der Nederlanden in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (14 vols)

I doubt any of us here is a specialist in the history of Dutch Jewry. One could add other specialist works, such as those by Ritz, various papers by Croes (e.g., "The Holocaust in the Netherlands and the Rate of Jewish Survival" in HGS); Aalder's essay in Feldman & Seibel, Networks of Nazi Persecution: Bureaucracy, Business, and the Organization of the Holocaust; Lindeman & de Vries, “‘Therefore Be Courageous, Too,’: Jewish Resistance and Rescue in the Netherlands,” in Henry, ed, Jewish Resistance Against the Nazis; and so on. A specialist would no doubt add many more, in Dutch and German.

Now, I've asked you to tell us what you think are the problems in this literature and on what grounds. You've been silent.

This leads me to ask a simpler question: which works, from the list in this post or others, on Dutch Jews in the Holocaust have you read and studied?

All that literature, and you can't prove that ONE Dutch Jew was killed by the Nazis. The holohoax is a collection of degenerate lies, nothing more.

General Holocaust denial discussion Part III

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