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The Trials of Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito: Part 25

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I dreamt about Grinder last night. We were doing rhetorical battle. He kicked my ass.

One day I will learn.

Heh. What I liked about Grinder was that he claimed to be a PIP yet argued like a PGP.

I loved that Stacyhs wasn't fooled and actually called him a 'guilter' straight out.


LOL. I remember one Christmas you,Grinder and acbytesla iirc spent the entire Christmas holiday arguing the pants off each other.
 
It is not in the statute so has no legal meaning.

On what evidence do you claim it "has no legal meaning"? For some odd reason, I don't tend to believe that the Supreme Court judges would just throw some meaningless finding into their official ruling for the ducks of it.
 
Heh. What I liked about Grinder was that he claimed to be a PIP yet argued like a PGP.

I loved that Stacyhs wasn't fooled and actually called him a 'guilter' straight out.


LOL. I remember one Christmas you,Grinder and acbytesla iirc spent the entire Christmas holiday arguing the pants off each other.

Yes. I thought he was from the little I had read of his posts at the time, my being new to ISF.

Grinder didn't argue like a PGP. He didn't resort to personal nasty attacks on Knox and Sollecito, didn't ignore science when it wasn't convenient, nor did he just make things up.
 
Yes. I thought he was from the little I had read of his posts at the time, my being new to ISF.

Grinder didn't argue like a PGP. He didn't resort to personal nasty attacks on Knox and Sollecito, didn't ignore science when it wasn't convenient, nor did he just make things up.


Quite.

And as with anyone he made mistakes occasionally. But unlike most PGP (yet just like the vast majority of PIP....) he was always prepared to a) be corrected by better evidence/understanding; b) learn from his mistakes; c) seek out better understanding without preconceptions or bias; d) never let personal malice get in the way of logic and reason; and e) always seek either empirical truths or logical deductions, in the total absence of a priori conclusions.

Of course, as it happens, this whole hoo-ha about 530.1/530.2 was (and is) entirely peripheral to the manner and status of the acquittals of both Knox and Sollecito on the murder-related charges. It was a side-issue of intellectual interest but zero practical interest to the "nub of the gist" of this case.


(As if one needs any real-world illustration of this, one need look no further than Sollecito's compensation case. Setting aside for one moment the fundamental mistakes the Florence Appeal Court and the SC made in refusing compensation (and the ECHR will sort that one out, I suspect....), isn't it *interesting* that neither of those courts made any inkling of a reference to an argument along the lines of: "Sollecito was only acquitted under 530.2, meaning he might well have done it but there was not quite enough evidence to convict - and this adds to the justification for detaining him, trying him and sentencing him in the first instance".

I wonder if that particular area of reasoning has ever even crossed the minds of most (any?) pro-guilt commentators? Actually no, revise that: I don't wonder at all whether it did or not.......)
 
Has anybody stumbled upon the case of a woman who was murdered and then dumped (I think) down a chute of sorts? Her clothing revealed the DNA of a known felon whose DNA was on police files. Police believe it was an open and shut case. Problem was the "murderer" had the perfect alibi. He'd been dead for two years! It turned out he had worked on the construction site where the woman was murdered and her clothing picked up his two year old DNA.

I read this in a science journal about a week ago and for the life of me I cannot locate the site.

Anyway maybe Vixen can tell us how this happened?
 
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Jacobs buying guns for her criminal cop-killer psycho partner and teaming up with another alleged cop-killer - also falsely claiming he was exonerated from the death penalty, when Ireland had already abolished it as of the time he was convicted, says it all for me.

Amanda Knox teaming up with this awful pair, claiming them to be her 'Innocence Project Buddies' and sitting on a sofa declaring her and 'Sunny' [shurely shome mishtake] as 'Sistas Togevver' tells you what a big fake phoney she is and all three of them are.

Sociopaths have no shame at all.

So, let me get this straight; because Jacobs had legally registered guns in her name because her husband couldn't own guns due to being on parole for attempted robbery when was 20 and decades later married a man who had his own conviction overturned, that just "says it all for you"? It's not important that no gun residue consistent with having shot a gun was found on Jacob's hands (but was on Rhodes' hands and possibly on Tafero's), that the jailhouse snitch who said Jacobs had confessed later admitted she had lied, and that Rhodes later confessed three times to being the one who shot the officers? Your criteria for judging people leaves a lot to be desired.

As for Pringle being sentenced to death, according to the Irish Examiner Nov 04, 2012:

He was sentenced to death for a crime he did not commit.

In November 1980 Peter was told by the Special Criminal Court in Dublin that he would be put to death for joining a robbery in which two gardaí, Henry Byrne and John Morley, lost their lives.

Ireland abolished the death penalty in 1990, ten years after Pringle was sentenced. His sentence was commuted to life in prison just days before his scheduled execution.

We went through all of this last May (see pages 48-49) and I provided evidence then that Pringle was, indeed, sentenced to hang and the facts from Jacobs' case I listed above. Why do you insist on claiming that Pringle was not sentenced to death when it has already been proved months ago?

You also made false claims that Amanda was "spouting some pseudo-feminist garbage" in the New Day Interview. You were proved wrong with that, too, when I provided the video (pg 48) of that interview. And, please, your claim that Amanda declared her and Sunny as 'Sistas Togevver' is also false.
 
Quite.

And as with anyone he made mistakes occasionally. But unlike most PGP (yet just like the vast majority of PIP....) he was always prepared to a) be corrected by better evidence/understanding; b) learn from his mistakes; c) seek out better understanding without preconceptions or bias; d) never let personal malice get in the way of logic and reason; and e) always seek either empirical truths or logical deductions, in the total absence of a priori conclusions.
It's what made him a credit to this internet service, ISF/JREF. He was a skeptic. As I re-remembered from re-reading this thread from the 10April2016 period, he was not afraid to take on all comers, and he was also not afraid to reverse himself if the evidence did not go his way.

In my view, he did have a priori beliefs about this case, but then again he'd not been part of those early FOA days, and came to his own conclusions based on other things. He was more than willing to stand and defend hs point of view.

But, he'd also admit it if he were wrong, and had the ability to adjust other beliefs on that basis. Like I say, it was more his method than the content of his beliefs that made him a credit to this service at ISF.
 
I notice you omitted a key parameter: how soon does the DNA have to be transferred (in minutes, hours, days?) for it to successfully be tranferred by tertiary touch (as you claim re the bra clasp).

Peter Gill says secondary transfer can only take place within 24 hours, so we all await your reply with interest as Raff's DNA must have been on the door frame six weeks.

I highly doubt he ever said this. Please provide a link to where Gill said this.
 
It's what made him a credit to this internet service, ISF/JREF. He was a skeptic. As I re-remembered from re-reading this thread from the 10April2016 period, he was not afraid to take on all comers, and he was also not afraid to reverse himself if the evidence did not go his way.

In my view, he did have a priori beliefs about this case, but then again he'd not been part of those early FOA days, and came to his own conclusions based on other things. He was more than willing to stand and defend hs point of view.

But, he'd also admit it if he were wrong, and had the ability to adjust other beliefs on that basis. Like I say, it was more his method than the content of his beliefs that made him a credit to this service at ISF.


And that's why I continue to subscribe to the belief that here - ISF (and JREFF before it) - is/was the best place to debate this case. It's because a) this is not a walled garden, b) it does not hold (in an "institutional" sense) a predetermined position on the case, and c) there really are some strong critical thinkers here (and I'm not just talking about many of the regulars in the Knox/Sollecito thread(s), but also other ISF members who have occasionally had a gander at the thread and found that it's not the cesspit that some of the pricks among the ISF membership like to disparage it with mockingly, and that there has been some excellent intellectually-driven debate on the thread (not to mention the fact that the majority of its regular participants came to the correct conclusion long, long ago.....)).

And actually, on that last parentheses-within-parentheses point in the above para, I really do think that this is an important factor, and one which should not be underplayed (nor put down to sheer binary chance). There was (and still is) a group of really good sceptics on this thread who had zero emotional attachment to the protagonists in this case (and, conversely, no axe to grind nor mawkish "victim support" emotional blackmail to employ), and who delved deeply, intelligently, and without binding preconceptions or conclusions.

And they got to the truth. The truth that a) in fact, EVERY SINGLE PIECE of the "evidence" which had persuaded the Massei (and then Nencini) court to pronounce for guilt was fundamentally, fatally flawed; that b) the convicting courts had in fact fundamentally misapplied the law and codes of criminal practice in the ways in which they assessed the evidence ("evidence") and reached their verdicts; that c) the police and prosecutors had demonstrated numerous egregious acts of misconduct, incompetence, omission, tunnel vision and confirmation bias; that d) the criminal case against Knox and Sollecito was therefore utterly flawed, and both of them categorically needed to be acquitted; and that e) the very high likelihood was that neither Knox nor Sollecito had anything whatsoever to do with the murder of Meredith Kercher.

(And that's before we even get to the matter of Knox's criminal slander conviction - on which I strongly believe that history and the ECHR will prove that this conviction was ridiculously flawed and riddled with malpractice and unlawful acts by the authorities - and Sollecito's (and presumably, in the future, Knox's) case for compensation....)

The intelligent, critical thinkers on this board figured it out. They were derided as either nutty, obsessive conspiracy theorists, or as individuals blinded by lust for Knox, or as individuals who (for some reason) got some sort of "kick" out of supporting "guilty" people, as people who were just plain wrong and/or unintelligent in their conclusions (bolstered in many cases by a strange automatic deference to a court judgement - most strange for a forum dedicated to critical thinking...), or as a mixture of some or all of the above.

But they were right. We were right.
 
I highly doubt he ever said this. Please provide a link to where Gill said this.


Yeah: everyone who knows anything about DNA knows that if DNA is deposited onto a surface then (in the absence of a cleaning/denaturing agent) it "deteriorates" of its own accord, even within 24 hours! :rolleyes:

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Yes Ladies and Gentlemen (and neither...). Roll up! Roll up! It's another exciting episode of "Scientific Illiteracy" :D:D:D
 
Raymond Clark and the Yale University case

Mike1711, I read about that case in Erin Murphy's book The Dark Side of DNA. The killer was Raymond Clark.
 
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Here's a sample of Grinder arguing a "perceived difference" between paragraph 1 and paragraph 2 acquittals, as you can see he was claiming far more than the original confusion that it had been a paragraph 1 acquittal:

As I said, Grinder eventually came around to recognizing that the germane question was the one as posed immediately above. An acquittal is an acquittal is an acquittal.

C'mon, it's the one time I bested the guy! Once, and you won't even give me that!!!!

I miss Grinder.
Grinder always argued that there was a difference in the perception of the two paragraphs. I don't believe he ever stated that he believed that there was a practical difference only that he wasn't sure if there was one (up until he consulted an Italian he knew). The claim that there was a difference in perception was based, at least in part, on innocentisti posting on ISF their hopes for a par. 1 verdict.
 
Grinder always argued that there was a difference in the perception of the two paragraphs. I don't believe he ever stated that he believed that there was a practical difference only that he wasn't sure if there was one (up until he consulted an Italian he knew). The claim that there was a difference in perception was based, at least in part, on innocentisti posting on ISF their hopes for a par. 1 verdict.

Grinder raised "perception" also in relation to what Luca Cheli had written.... the latter of whom summarized the M/B report into a few shadows, and some thunder which would have reverberated through the Italian judiciary because of it.

Yet who really cares about what people perceive? It's not even one of Cheli's shadows which would linger.....

The difference between a Paragraph 1 and 2 acquittal is non-existent, yet what has highlighted the comment on this case is that these perceptions predate anything the M/B report would have written either way.

But you are correct, Grinder had wanted to talk about things at that level, presumably to expose PIP hypocrisy.
 
Grinder raised "perception" also in relation to what Luca Cheli had written.... the latter of whom summarized the M/B report into a few shadows, and some thunder which would have reverberated through the Italian judiciary because of it.

Yet who really cares about what people perceive? It's not even one of Cheli's shadows which would linger.....

The difference between a Paragraph 1 and 2 acquittal is non-existent, yet what has highlighted the comment on this case is that these perceptions predate anything the M/B report would have written either way.

But you are correct, Grinder had wanted to talk about things at that level, presumably to expose PIP hypocrisy.

It's interesting that there was little or no discussion on ISF of the significance of the article of the Italian Code of Criminal Procedure (CPP) used by the Hellmann court in its acquittal. The Hellmann court, as a court of appeal, in its acquittal cited CPP Article 605 rather than CPP Article 530. CPP Article 605 lacks the detailed language of CPP Article 530, but Hellmann used the specific rationales of "the accused did not commit the (criminal) act" {for charges A, B, C, and D} and "the act did not take place" {for charge E} found in CPP Article 530. It is such specific rationales as listed in CPP Article 530 that are legally significant rather than whether CPP Article 530.1 or 530.2 or, for an appeal court judgment, CPP Article 605, is invoked in the verdict.

Here's the text of CPP Article 605:

Art. 605 - Sentenza
1. Fuori dei casi previsti dall'articolo 604, il giudice di appello pronuncia sentenza con la quale conferma o riforma la sentenza appellata.
2. Le pronunce del giudice di appello sull'azione civile sono immediatamente esecutive.
3. Copia della sentenza di appello, con gli atti del procedimento, è trasmessa senza ritardo, a cura della cancelleria, al giudice di primo grado, quando questi è competente per l'esecuzione e non è stato proposto ricorso per cassazione.

Source: http://www.leggeonline.info/leggi/procedurapenale/art605/sentenza/

In translation:

Article 605 Judgment

1. With the exception of the cases provided for in Article 604 {cases of nullity}, the appeal judge shall deliver a judgment confirming or amending the appealed judgment.

2. The decisions of the appeal judge on civil actions shall be immediately enforceable.

3. A copy of the appeal judgment, along with the case file, shall be forwarded without delay by the Judge's Clerk's Office to the first-instance judge, if he has competence for enforcement and no appeal has been lodged with the Court of Cassation.

Source: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, editors: M. Gialuz, L. Luparia, and F. Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014

Here's the short form verdict (PQM, For these reasons) from the English translation of the Hellmann court motivation report:

FOR THESE REASONS [P.Q.M.]

The Corte di Assise di Appello of Perugia,

pursuant to C.P.P. Article 605 ,

in partial modification of the ruling announced on the date of December 4-5, 2009 by the Perugia Corte di Assise of first level in the matter of Amanda Marie Knox and Raffaele Sollecito, appealed by them and [also] incidentally by the Prosecutor of the Republic of Perugia,

DECLARES

Amanda Marie Knox guilty of the crime under Charge F, without the aggravating circumstance of C.P. Article 61 no. 2, and with mitigating circumstances equivalent to the aggravating circumstance under C.P. Article 368; and sentences her to three years of confinement; confirming, with regard to this charge only, the civil sanctions of the ruling under appeal, sentencing Amanda Marie Knox to the payment of court costs and attorney’s fees incurred at the present level [of appeal] by Patrick Diya Lumumba, in the total amount of 22,170 euros for rights and fees in addition to the reimbursement of general expenses and accessories of law;

ACQUITS
both of the defendants of the crimes attributed to them under Charges A,B,C, and D for not having committed the act, and of the crime under Charge E because the act did not take place; rejecting the request made against them by civil party Aldalia Tattanelli; ...

{Note that the conviction under charge F, made final by the Chieffi CSC panel, is the subject of the case Knox v. Italy, alleging that Italy violated Knox's rights under the Convention, currently pending before the ECHR.}

Source: https://hellmannreport.wordpress.com/contents/order/
 
Part of the seeming controversy about CPP Article 530 results from issues of translation: meaning and grammar. Careful examination shows that CPP Article 530.2 includes the case when the evidence (or proof) is absent, missing, or lacking (in Italian, "manca", as has been stated by LondonJohn) and 530.2 is ALSO (in Italian, "anche"), like 530.1, an acquittal.

Here's the Italian text of CPP Article 530:

Art. 530 - Sentenza di assoluzione
1. Se il fatto non sussiste, se l'imputato non lo ha commesso, se il fatto non costituisce reato o non è previsto dalla legge come reato ovvero se il reato è stato commesso da persona non imputabile o non punibile per un'altra ragione, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione indicandone la causa nel dispositivo.
2. Il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione anche quando manca, è insufficiente o è contraddittoria la prova che il fatto sussiste, che l'imputato lo ha commesso, che il fatto costituisce reato o che il reato è stato commesso da persona imputabile.
3. Se vi è la prova che il fatto è stato commesso in presenza di una causa di giustificazione o di una causa personale di non punibilità ovvero vi è dubbio sull'esistenza delle stesse, il giudice pronuncia sentenza di assoluzione a norma del comma 1.
4. Con la sentenza di assoluzione il giudice applica, nei casi previsti dalla legge, le misure di sicurezza.

Here's the English translation (Google and Gialuz et al. and me):

Art. 530 - Judgment of Acquittal

1. If the offense {criminal act} did not occur, if the accused did not commit it, if the act is not considered {deemed} a crime {offense} by law or if the offense was committed by a person who cannot be accused or is not punishable for a different reason, the judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal, indicating the cause in the disposition {operative part of the judgment}.

2. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal also when the evidence is absent {missing or lacking}, insufficient or contradictory that the criminal act occurred, that the accused committed it, the act is deemed an offense by law, or that the offense was committed by a person who can be accused {that is, with mental capacity}.

3. The judge shall deliver a judgment of acquittal pursuant to paragraph 1 if there is evidence that the underlying causes of the committed act are either a reason for justification or a personal reason for exemption from punishment or if there is doubt {suggesting the} existence of such reasons.

4. By means of the judgment of acquittal, the judge shall apply, in the cases provided for by law, security measures.
____
Note that the specification "the accused did not commit the (criminal) act" is present in 530.2 as "anche quando manca, è insufficiente o è contraddittoria la prova ... che l'imputato lo ha commesso" = "also when the evidence is absent, insufficient or contradictory ... that the accused committed it {the criminal act}")
 
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Has anybody stumbled upon the case of a woman who was murdered and then dumped (I think) down a chute of sorts? Her clothing revealed the DNA of a known felon whose DNA was on police files. Police believe it was an open and shut case. Problem was the "murderer" had the perfect alibi. He'd been dead for two years! It turned out he had worked on the construction site where the woman was murdered and her clothing picked up his two year old DNA.

I read this in a science journal about a week ago and for the life of me I cannot locate the site.

Anyway maybe Vixen can tell us how this happened?

DNA on its own is useless evidence.
 
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