Merged All things Trump + Russia

[quadraginta]

In this case it is because they attended a meeting in order to collude with an adversary of the United States and it is all there in the emails.

<snip>

"Conspire". Please try to remember to use "conspire".

It's only common courtesy. "Collude" gives Ziggurat heartburn and makes his blood pressure go up.

And "conspire" sounds better, anyway.

 

[Emily's Cat]

For the love of reason, can we separate out some of the parts here? Somewhere along the way, we reverted to the cold war, and it's bordering on McCarthyism. Look, here's all we need to consider:

• If someone (regardless of their nationality) hacked the DNC server, then they are guilty of criminal activity.
• If someone on Trump's campaign team had advance knowledge of anyone's intent to hack the DNC server (regardless of the nationality of that person) and did not take steps to prevent it, then they are accessories to that crime.
• If people on Trump's campaign team gained definitive knowledge of hacking with respect to the DNC servers (regardless of who did the hacking) and failed to report that information to the proper authorities, then they are accessories after the fact.
• If they actively took steps to prevent that knowledge being gained then they have obstructed justice, and are either an accessory or have colluded (not sure what the distinction would be).
• If they made plans with the hacker before the hacking of the DNC officials in order to accomplish the hack and benefit from the information found there, then they have colluded with criminals.
• If they received information directly from the hacking ( regardless of who did the hacking), then at a minimum they've received stolen goods.

Which of those things have been found by investigative authorities to be true?

 

[Emily's Cat]

Are you arguing that two wrongs make a right?

And that we shouldn't bother trying to take any steps to discourage foreign interference in our elections because "Everybody's doing it."?

I'm arguing that it's naive and absurd to expect that other countries will NOT act in their own interests. I'm arguing that the vociferous "OMG Russia is BAAADD because they wanted to influence our election" is a pile of childish rhetoric that ignores both reality and reason.

 

[trustbutverify]

A random selection of modern Russians. That's how great Russia is these days : there are no little people. Everybody's somebody. No more nomenklatura and then everybody else like in Soviet days.

It's a small world in Oligarchs-ville.

I think there's just a need to keep going.

Till the wheels fall off.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Forgive me if my google fu is failing... but didn't they meet with Natalia Veselnitskaya? She isn't a representative of the Russian government, is she?

She isn't, but the (kind of desperate) argument is that Don Jr. was made to believe she was a government representative, or acted on behalf of the non-existant "crown prosecutor" sharing dirty laundry on Killary.

According to her, she was made to believe that the meeting was about the Maginsky (spl?) act against which she was lobbying on behalf of her client. The guy that made both meet telling them different stories (one story we know from Jr.'s emails), is Rob Goldstone. Don Jr. knew him from when he was some kind of manager of a second rate Russian popstar whose billionaire father organized Trump's "Miss Universe" (or World or whatever) event in Moscow in 2013 (and who is married to the daughter of "our dictator" in Azerbaijan).

Goldstone's promises of dirt on Killary delivered by the non-existant "crown prosecutor" were met by Don Jr. with "if it's what you say, great", leading to a short.live meeting where Don Jr. wanted dirt on Killary and the lawyer wanted to lobby against the Maginsky act.

And the guy getting these people together (known by Don Jr. from briefly meeting him) is this guy (similar video as posted earlier, in case you "don't have twitter"):



I want to see the lawyer's email conversation with Goldstone and maybe one (a three-second) waterboarding session with the latter.

 

[Belz...]

At some point, I suspect the actual real evidence *will* reach a tipping point. But a preponderance of speculation and allegation and investigation *still* isn't evidence.

The problem is that a lot of people here seem to be trying real hard to ignore everything that's revealed. We have three high-ranking officials of the Trump campaign meeting with a Russian agent to get information to get an advantage on a political opponent, assuredly for favours following the election. You cannot deny this.

 

[quadraginta]

Forgive me if my google fu is failing... but didn't they meet with Natalia Veselnitskaya? She isn't a representative of the Russian government, is she?

<snip>

Can't help yourself, can you? Have to stick to this same pitiful attempt at misdirection no matter how often it is debunked.

Okay. One more time.

It doesn't matter whether she was or not. What matters is that they believed she was, and chose to meet with her because of that belief.

If she had been an undercover agent for the FEC and had been born in Fort Wayne it still wouldn't matter because what does matter is their intent.

Got it? Yet?

If you don't, then it can only be because of willful avoidance of an obvious truth, and anything more you say on the subject can be reasonably disregarded.

 

[Elagabalus]

...But they can certainly try to influence opinion. It's in their interests to do so, just as it's in our interests to do so with respect to other countries that we have an interest in. It's absurd to suggest it should be otherwise, just because we're America...

It's nice to see conservatives finally embracing librul values.

 

[Stacko]

The problem is that a lot of people here seem to be trying real hard to ignore everything that's revealed. We have three high-ranking officials of the Trump campaign meeting with a Russian agent to get information to get an advantage on a political opponent, assuredly for favours following the election. You cannot deny this.

Someone's a hopeless optimist. [emoji14]

 

[Elagabalus]

<SNIP>



I want to see the lawyer's email conversation with Goldstone and maybe one (a three-second) waterboarding session with the latter.

AmericanEveryman, stay away from me
AmericanEveryman, duda let me be
Don?t come hangin? around my door
I don?t wanna see your face no more ...

 

[Stacko]

Peter Smith, the GOP operative that attempted to get the Russians to hack Hillary's emails, cause of death has been revealed. He committed suicide.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...-smith-death-met-0713-20170713-story,amp.html

 

[CapelDodger]

High quality Rival

I don't know about you but I don't have an ocean between me and Russia, so I'm not about to underestimate them. Western European concern about Russia dates back to Peter the Great's arrival on the Baltic three centuries ago and his transfer of the Imperial Capital from way over there in Moscow to right over here. A statement of intent if ever there was one.

Two centuries ago Russian troops marched through Paris. Fortunately they went home afterwards.

A certain complacency has set in recently, but I get the sense Europe has been shaken out of it.

 

[trustbutverify]

It's nice to see conservatives finally embracing librul values.

I heard somewhere that politics makes strange bedfellows.

 

[quadraginta]

Well, no. Money used to buy things other than speech has no speech protection, even though it's still money. Because money isn't speech, and the SCOTUS never said otherwise.

It doesn't matter what else money will buy. If it can buy speech then people with more money can have more speech.

Which leads to 'all the democracy you can afford'.

If you cant' afford as much then tough titties, The Supremes said you're **** out of luck. (As well as out of democracy.)

 

[trustbutverify]

The problem is that a lot of people here seem to be trying real hard to ignore everything that's revealed. We have three high-ranking officials of the Trump campaign meeting with a Russian agent to get information to get an advantage on a political opponent, assuredly for favours following the election. You cannot deny this.

What makes you think that?

 

[Childlike Empress]

We have three high-ranking officials of the Trump campaign meeting with a Russian agent

A blatant lie given you've been around the whole thread.

You cannot deny this.

Your methods are utterly transparent. I for one can tell you, and suspect there a many readers agreeing with me, that Ziggurat, with whom I rarely share a political view, has exposed your time-wasting and profoundly dishonest games pretty thorougly.

 

[Babbylonian]

I'm arguing that it's naive and absurd to expect that other countries will NOT act in their own interests. I'm arguing that the vociferous "OMG Russia is BAAADD because they wanted to influence our election" is a pile of childish rhetoric that ignores both reality and reason.

What Russia does is irrelevant. What a [winning] presidential candidate and its campaign, including its chief aides, have done is where the problem lies.

Fine, what Russia did is what any country would do (a lie but I'll go with it to shut this garbage down). However, what US citizens, especially those attempting to win an election for this nation's highest office, may do (did) in order to aid Russia can be (is) a serious problem.

 

[Emily's Cat]

The problem is that a lot of people here seem to be trying real hard to ignore everything that's revealed. We have three high-ranking officials of the Trump campaign meeting with a Russian agent to get information to get an advantage on a political opponent, assuredly for favours following the election. You cannot deny this.

They met with a lawyer who is not an agent of Russia and got no information. Your "assuredly" is speculative.

I'm not ignoring everything that's revealed. I am, however, ignoring the majority of the speculation and hypothesizing that invariably accompanies them. And I'm ignoring the overwhelming majority of unattributed and unverified "anonymous source" information. I'm also ignoring the interpretation of non-lawyers with respect to the application of law, and the interpretation of non-psychiatrists with respect to medical mental health diagnoses. I'm also ignoring all of the freewheeling "what he really meant" sludge piled on top of every statement by someone from the white house.

 

[Emily's Cat]

Peter Smith, the GOP operative that attempted to get the Russians to hack Hillary's emails, cause of death has been revealed. He committed suicide.

Seriously, do you guys even know what an operative or an agent actually is? When did the GOP spin up a spy agency?

 

[Emily's Cat]

What Russia does is irrelevant. What a [winning] presidential candidate and its campaign, including its chief aides, have done is where the problem lies.

Fine, what Russia did is what any country would do (a lie but I'll go with it to shut this garbage down). However, what US citizens, especially those attempting to win an election for this nation's highest office, may do (did) in order to aid Russia can be (is) a serious problem.

What did Trump's campaign do to aid Russia?